All for reef vs 2/3 part in larger SPS systems

[mp2022]

Hi all,
I have 2 dosing related questions.
I have just transferred over an SPS >> LPS/soft coral system from 48 gallons to 125 gallons but plan for mostly an SPS system with montis and acros going forward for new coral additions.
I have been dosing AFR for a while now and it has been going well with stable parameters in my 48 gallon with very little adjustment and I only had rarely done water changes. I am currently trying to tweak dosing and parameters because it’s a new system that hasn’t quite stabilized yet.

I have read that single part dosing like AFR is best suited for smaller systems where regular water changes are done and it’s best to transition to a 2- or 3-part system for larger sps dominant tanks.

1) Is there any reason right now to transition to 2- or 3-part while things are new since this system is much larger volume, and is already and will continue to be very SPS heavy?

2) I have read that these multi part systems need to be dosed in equal amounts (see Aquaforest 3 part instructions for example), and I don’t quite understand what is the benefit of doing it this way if you aren’t supposed to change the amount of individual components is administer. I think this is probably a complete misunderstanding on my end so hoping for some clarification.

Thank you!

 

[Oldreefer44]

My advice is that if you are used to using AFR then stick with it for now. Many successfully use it on large systemst

 

[Justfebreezeit]

The only reason to change from AFR would be cost imo.

The reason 2/3 parts exist is so they can be stored in a shelf stable form. You can dose them in unequal parts to get levels where you want them. But the maintenance dose should be equal parts.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The advice on smaller systems for AFR is (or should be) based only on cost. Nothing else about a larger system makes AFR less suitable. I use it on my system, with a 120 gallon display and about 250 gallons total water volume.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

2) I have read that these multi part systems need to be dosed in equal amounts (see Aquaforest 3 part instructions for example), and I don’t quite understand what is the benefit of doing it this way if you aren’t supposed to change the amount of individual components is administer. I think this is probably a complete misunderstanding on my end so hoping for some clarification.

There is no other way to make a system that has a good pH boost without the dosing amount limtiations of kalkwasser.

I discuss all of these pros and cons here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/pros-and-cons-of-alkalinity-and-calcium-dosing-methods.1069/

 

[areefer01]

As noted above, All For Reef in its original packaging (pre-made liquid), was considered for smaller system due to cost.

At some point a hobbyist at BRS put together an over the counter Tropic Marin product list to buy independently and make All For Reef, at the same concentration levels, for substantially cheaper. This was good and it gained popularity for those with larger systems.

Further on down the road to present time Tropic Marin offers it in powder form. The 1600 g container makes 10 liters for 75 USD pre shipping, tax. One can calculate their daily dose, do some math, and see how long the product lasts.

All For Reef does not know, or care, about the system size. The onus is on the hobbyist to do some calculations and see if it is worth it. One trick some hobbyist use with larger systems and colonies is to supplement with Kalkwasser. Not spiking AFR but rather dose Kalkwasser along with All For Reef to extend the product timeline.

One thing to note when using both Kalkwasser and AFR is that for every alkalinity you get from Kalkwasser you will not get from AFR so will miss some trace elements as a result. I may not be explaining it properly but Lou (Tropic Marin) has discussed this before with using both. Not a huge deal I don't believe.

TL; DR - there are plenty of All For Reef users with large systems containing large colonies with great success. Just do that simple math check and see if it works for you. I myself am using All For Reef on my packed 210 gallon system and dose about 100 ml / day. I am in the process of upgrading to a 450 gallon tank and will still use it. I just may dose Kalkwasser at some point once I reach my daily dose vs cost threshold.

 

[mp2022]

Thank you all for the helpful responses!

 

[X-37B]

As noted above, All For Reef in its original packaging (pre-made liquid), was considered for smaller system due to cost.

At some point a hobbyist at BRS put together an over the counter Tropic Marin product list to buy independently and make All For Reef, at the same concentration levels, for substantially cheaper. This was good and it gained popularity for those with larger systems.

Further on down the road to present time Tropic Marin offers it in powder form. The 1600 g container makes 10 liters for 75 USD pre shipping, tax. One can calculate their daily dose, do some math, and see how long the product lasts.

All For Reef does not know, or care, about the system size. The onus is on the hobbyist to do some calculations and see if it is worth it. One trick some hobbyist use with larger systems and colonies is to supplement with Kalkwasser. Not spiking AFR but rather dose Kalkwasser along with All For Reef to extend the product timeline.

One thing to note when using both Kalkwasser and AFR is that for every alkalinity you get from Kalkwasser you will not get from AFR so will miss some trace elements as a result. I may not be explaining it properly but Lou (Tropic Marin) has discussed this before with using both. Not a huge deal I don't believe.

TL; DR - there are plenty of All For Reef users with large systems containing large colonies with great success. Just do that simple math check and see if it works for you. I myself am using All For Reef on my packed 210 gallon system and dose about 100 ml / day. I am in the process of upgrading to a 450 gallon tank and will still use it. I just may dose Kalkwasser at some point once I reach my daily dose vs cost threshold.

On my ext 112 I went the other way. I am dosing kalk to maintain the system until it reaches 4mlm, around 5 liters.
I will then start dosing A4R once 4mlm is not keeping my alk steady at 7.5-8.
I currently dose 1.2mlm, around 1.8mlm.
I run a carx in my 170 and started dosing kalk to keep ph up at night.
I am at 4mlm of kalk. Thats the number I used for the 112.

 

[Dakota_reef]

I absolutely LOVE All for Reef. I dose A4F to maintain calcium and I supplement alkalinity with a soda ash mix. Rarely do I ever have to dose Mg. But I hardly have to do water changes when I'm paying attention and testing parameters regularly.

 

[exnisstech]

I dose A4F to maintain calcium and I supplement alkalinity with a soda ash mix.

How does this work? AFR maintains alk and calcium. Ive been using it for almost 3 years and use alk as my indicator for calculating dosage. I only test calcium every few months and have never had to make adjustments.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

I've always dosed AFR in my tank just because it is easy to use. Now cost does become a factor in larger tanks, but if cost isn't much of a worry and you are having no issues with afr. I wouldn't switch it

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How does this work? AFR maintains alk and calcium. Ive been using it for almost 3 years and use alk as my indicator for calculating dosage. I only test calcium every few months and have never had to make adjustments.

I suspect he means that he tops up alk with a much smaller dose when needed, since AFR is very slightly over loaded with calcium relative to alk.

The alternative, which is what I recommend, is dose AFR to maintain alk, and let calcium and magnesium do what they will. That typically works fine without ever measuring calcium or magnesium, unless you never do water changes.

 

[exnisstech]

I suspect he means that he tops up alk with a much smaller dose when needed, since AFR is very slightly over loaded with calcium relative to alk.

The alternative, which is what I recommend, is dose AFR to maintain alk, and let calcium and magnesium do what they will. That typically works fine without ever measuring calcium or magnesium, unless you never do water changes.

I've found out it really doesn't take much in the way of WC to keep calcium in line. My system is 65g total and I do random 4g WC and my calcium is great. I assume mag is good, I've never tested it.

 

[Dakota_reef]

How does this work? AFR maintains alk and calcium. Ive been using it for almost 3 years and use alk as my indicator for calculating dosage. I only test calcium every few months and have never had to make adjustments.

I can't speak to the mechanism, but I do the exact opposite of you. I dose A4R to maintain 400+ppm Calcium, but my Alk can't keep up so I dose ALK seprately. Magnesium stays put. before my stupid tank crash, I was dosing 55ml/day of A4R and 30ml/day of Alkalinity. My corals grow like weeds and I hardly have to do water changes so I love it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I can't speak to the mechanism, but I do the exact opposite of you. I dose A4R to maintain 400+ppm Calcium, but my Alk can't keep up so I dose ALK seprately. Magnesium stays put. before my stupid tank crash, I was dosing 55ml/day of A4R and 30ml/day of Alkalinity. My corals grow like weeds and I hardly have to do water changes so I love it.

That trend is expected if you use it to maintain calcium, though the degree seems excessive. In any case, if it seems to work, there’s nothing particularly wrong with it, I just think dosing based on alk alone is easier.

 

[Dakota_reef]

That trend is expected if you use it to maintain calcium, though the degree seems excessive. In any case, if it seems to work, there’s nothing particularly wrong with it, I just think dosing based on alk alone is easier.

I might try this, but my Alkalinity has a really hard time staying above 8.0. The only good news is that my corals don't seem to care even when it's 7.0-7.5. The problem is that when my alk gets that low, my pH won't go above 8.0. so maybe I'm just doing something wrong? Or maybe, now that I think about it, the corals are eating the alkalinity away and my calcium doesn't get used if the Alk runs out....

ETA: Recently, after my Alk crash, my Calcium has registered <100ppm and even after dosing two jars of BRS' CaCl, I still read next to zero Ca. . . it's started to freak me out and my Salinity gets affected (1.024 -> 1.027 difference, did a water change, got it back to 1.025).

 

[ReefGeezer]

AFR is a good product that does what it claims. I gets expensive in a big tank that has heavy calcium/alkalinity demand. I would suggest using AFR until it becomes too expensive. When that happens, dosing DIY alk, calcium, and magnesium along with Tropic Marin A&K Elements can get the same results. FWIW, I use a calcium reactor in my high demand system and dose A&K Elements.

 

[mp2022]

How does this work? AFR maintains alk and calcium. Ive been using it for almost 3 years and use alk as my indicator for calculating dosage. I only test calcium every few months and have never had to make adjustments.

I suspect he means that he tops up alk with a much smaller dose when needed, since AFR is very slightly over loaded with calcium relative to alk.

The alternative, which is what I recommend, is dose AFR to maintain alk, and let calcium and magnesium do what they will. That typically works fine without ever measuring calcium or magnesium, unless you never do water changes.

So if you don’t do water changes routinely, is it then safer to dose AFR based off of calcium? Thanks.

 

[mp2022]

That trend is expected if you use it to maintain calcium, though the degree seems excessive. In any case, if it seems to work, there’s nothing particularly wrong with it, I just think dosing based on alk alone is easier.

I might try this, but my Alkalinity has a really hard time staying above 8.0. The only good news is that my corals don't seem to care even when it's 7.0-7.5. The problem is that when my alk gets that low, my pH won't go above 8.0. so maybe I'm just doing something wrong? Or maybe, now that I think about it, the corals are eating the alkalinity away and my calcium doesn't get used if the Alk runs out....

ETA: Recently, after my Alk crash, my Calcium has registered <100ppm and even after dosing two jars of BRS' CaCl, I still read next to zero Ca. . . it's started to freak me out and my Salinity gets affected (1.024 -> 1.027 difference, did a water change, got it back to 1.025).

How did your tank crash? Was it related to dosing issues?

 

[mp2022]

AFR is a good product that does what it claims. I gets expensive in a big tank that has heavy calcium/alkalinity demand. I would suggest using AFR until it becomes too expensive. When that happens, dosing DIY alk, calcium, and magnesium along with Tropic Marin A&K Elements can get the same results. FWIW, I use a calcium reactor in my high demand system and dose A&K Elements.

Do you find the up front cost of a calcium reactor was worth it in the end (I am assuming yes)? What made you transition to a calcium reactor?