Ammonia burn in QT

[Stelioshah]

that fish is tiny, low output rate of ammonia compared to a big wrasse etc

can we see the picture of the tank he was in when the burn happened/ties in the big picture view of the issue/and if anyone has meds they want to recommend it'll help them see if the burn was likely based in that specific setup. reddened gills alone can't prove it/flukes etc may mask it/but qt are the ones likely to see issues so that big picture is helpful in your fish diagnosis in my opinion.

Here are some photos again, as I stated earlier the fish was laying on the bottom on its side for at least 3-4 hours and was gasping for air. After putting it in the bowl with clean water it recovered within about 3 hours. The reef shop I bought it from said they had it for 2 months. The difference in the way it acts after moving it in clean water is extreme.

The bag is carbon, there is some cycled media within the canister filter. There is also an air stone which currently is in the bowl for better oxygenation.

 

[brandon429]

nice documentation. Feed added if left in the system could drive up ammonia, that's pretty significant dilution for that one small fish/ if cycling bacteria was added it's hard to prove ammonia but I get what you're saying. changing to new water helped

that is indeed a sparse surface area setup for sure compared to a display tank, and the water doesn't look 100% clear either it may be cloudy not sure. I cant immediately rule out 02/lack thereof but either that or ammonia is certainly a risk in quarantine setups

 

[Stelioshah]

nice documentation. Feed added if left in the system could drive up ammonia, that's pretty significant dilution for that one small fish/ if cycling bacteria was added it's hard to prove ammonia but I get what you're saying. changing to new water helped

that is indeed a sparse surface area setup for sure compared to a display tank, and the water doesn't look 100% clear either it may be cloudy not sure. I cant immediately rule out 02/lack thereof but either that or ammonia is certainly a risk in quarantine setups

The plastic actually is not clear, that's why it looks that way. The fish still is heavy breathing don't get me wrong but it is responsive and does not stay on its side. Here is how it looks from the top:

 

[vetteguy53081]

Greetings, today I woke up to find that my flasher wrasse got ammonia burned in QT while I was asleep. I still could barely measure any ammonia using the salifert ammonia test, but the gill burn is obvious. I went to pharmacies and after searching for hours finally found one that would sell me a methylene blue solution, unfortunately the solution ended up being methylene violet. Would that do the trick? Does anyone have any experience? Is it more toxic to fish?

Cant say this is ammonia burn as it is an assumption but inflamed gills can be caused by flukes and injury and in some cases velvet
Will need more history as even if ammonia burn would be progressive and not sudden which is more common in freshwater. Known as flavobacteria, it is caused by temperature spike, poor water quality, or excess organic compounds in the water and in fish just shipped due to toxicity

 

[Stelioshah]

Cant say this is ammonia burn as it is an assumption but inflamed gills can be caused by flukes and injury and in some cases velvet
Will need more history as even if ammonia burn would be progressive and not sudden which is more common in freshwater. Known as flavobacteria, it is caused by temperature spike, poor water quality, or excess organic compounds in the water and in fish just shipped due to toxicity

The fish was at the reef shop for about 2 months, totally healthy. I got it 3 days ago and was really healthy, immediately eating after putting it in the qt. For the first two days it was totally fine, I woke up today and saw it staying on the ground, I then left for 2 hours returned home and it still was on the ground, I could see some redness on the gills and some red lines "like veins" which started it from the gills and reached its tail, These lines disappeared after putting it in clean water but the redness on the gills remained, it even got more red throughout the day, it has been about 13 hours at this point.

 

[brandon429]

Can you take a ph reading from the tank in question, chemists will use that reading to factor likelihood of nh3 ammonia burn

 

[Stelioshah]

Can you take a ph reading from the tank in question, chemists will use that reading to factor likelihood of nh3 ammonia burn

I thought of lowering the pH to reduce ammonia toxicity, my dt usually sits at around 8.2, it probably is that high give me a sec.

 

[Stelioshah]

The pH is 8 at the quarantine.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The fish was at the reef shop for about 2 months, totally healthy. I got it 3 days ago and was really healthy, immediately eating after putting it in the qt. For the first two days it was totally fine, I woke up today and saw it staying on the ground, I then left for 2 hours returned home and it still was on the ground, I could see some redness on the gills and some red lines "like veins" which started it from the gills and reached its tail, These lines disappeared after putting it in clean water but the redness on the gills remained, it even got more red throughout the day, it has been about 13 hours at this point.

How did you acclimate fish and for how long ?
Generally when fish die, they can hemorrhage which is what you may be seeing but its clearly inflammation and based on your statement made of fish laying and progressively getting redder sounds like a condition called branchiitis which is often due to a lack of oxygen in the water which asphyxiates the fish, thereby causing the gills to turn out to become inflamed due to being overworked and poibts to water quality.

 

[Stelioshah]

How did you acclimate fish and for how long ?
Generally when fish die, they can hemorrhage which is what you may be seeing but its clearly inflammation and based on your statement made of fish laying and progressively getting redder sounds like a condition called branchiitis which is often due to a lack of oxygen in the water which asphyxiates the fish, thereby causing the gills to turn out to become inflamed due to being overworked and poibts to water quality.

I matched to the point the salinity of the qt and the fish water, temperature acclimatized the fish and then put it in. I have an air stone which produces tons of microbubbles I doubt it is the lack of oxygen..

 

[vetteguy53081]

I matched to the point the salinity of the qt and the fish water, temperature acclimatized the fish and then put it in. I have an air stone which produces tons of microbubbles I doubt it is the lack of oxygen..

If levels are high or you are getting false readings, air stone will then buy time. In the pics the water is very cloudy and there is a bloom or other issue with water going on and no levels are mentioned (ammonia-nitrate-ph)
What are you using for testing?

 

[Stelioshah]

If levels are high or you are getting false readings, air stone will then buy time. In the pics the water is very cloudy and there is a bloom or other issue with water going on and no levels are mentioned (ammonia-nitrate-ph)
What are you using for testing?

I posted a picture from taken from above, the tank is cloudy not the water, check the picture earlier. The water is clear. I am using salifert test kits. I am also noting that the fish's eyes look a bit popped, I don't know what that indicates.

 

[brandon429]

Air stones beat pump arrangements for oxygenation

Nice planning there. You're making the best case we've seen for ammonia this year for sure.

Until we get one of these events on a seneye there will never be pure agreement. But this is how the evolution of cycling plays out using the tools we do have

 

[brandon429]

I am 100% sure that anyone who has ever taken the side of a reef tank display not being ready for fish after bottle bac was added cannot just flip stances here and rule out ammonia. This is the exact presentation we'd see it in, if it's occurring at all in reefing. I would have wanted a larger fish to be present to make a stronger no- seneye case for skeptics. Dilution is an easy offset for small bioloads

 

[vetteguy53081]

I posted a picture from taken from above, the tank is cloudy not the water, check the picture earlier. The water is clear. I am using salifert test kits. I am also noting that the fish's eyes look a bit popped water/water quality.

Popeye is a condition and not a disease and often is caused by an injury but when both are protruded unliterally and infected, it either a bacterial or fungal issue again pointing to water/water quality. Example is vibrio which is a bacterial issue or internal fungal issue known as ichthyophonus hoferi which can manifest popeye. Biggest challenge here is the fish has perished and wish there was video prior to death. There is an array of possible causes.

 

[brandon429]

Another thing helpful for your case: biomedia laid out on the floor isn't efficient at nitrification, it's why filters are so efficient: inlet far away from outlet/ pressurized flow through

Wastewater swirls around not though channels when it's not inside a filter forced flow path
That's a reduction in critical surface area presentation to wastewater, in your favor of ammonia burn. That's the least efficient way to use very little extra surface area. The spheres still contribute to nitrification, but a single fish that small won't take much to be handled/ we just don't know the final proof because nobody does this fish- in symptom study using calibrated digital gear. We're always left with a pH estimate + ammonia kit readout estimate to make very precise calls in reef tank nh3 tracing

@Dan_P this is the rare time I'd consider recurring daily ammonia burning it takes these extremes in my opinion. If this was a larger fish I'd really be pushing it as symptomatic ammonia burning. That's one small fish though

Test loads in cycling setup experiments will exceed this tiny fish's ammonia output is the solid bet. This is one easy bioload to carry. That's in favor of no ammonia burning.

There's no deciding factor until it's a calibrated seneye

Cycling science understanding is stalled, until someone replicates this experiment with a seneye and same fish species and similar surface area layout

A real fish doesn't have to be taken to toxicity. Just use the seneye to prove that one fish would rise up nh3 in your setting @ 8.0 pH

Just repeat the setup using a calibrated seneye (benchmarked on a running reef for baseline assessment) and play with ammonia dilution levels to see what's the max nh3 it'll process.


You'll have cycling insight worthy of a macna talk, get it first. Somebody reading with a seneye- make use of your device by contributing to cycling science

Macna crowds want to know inherent timing of cycle closure and max carry loads for different degrees of surface area. Take your running seneye and begin doing 5 gallon bucket cycling experiments and posting the logs

You'll generate article gold

 

[MnFish1]

@Jay Hemdal

I was looking for evidence of ammonia burning recently, this may be one/tbd

Stelio how do you ascribe ammonia burn as the issue and not a gill malady/response to medicine etc

can you post a video short clip of the fish at it sits now

I would not recover from gill burning by adding more meds, that's for sure if indeed it was an ammonia burn. you'd handle ammonia (not by Prime, by water change and add back in cycled surface area) and feed the fish incredibly well and reduce stressors and let it heal.

I have doubts its ammonia burn, but from the video we'd see the system layout and see if lack of dilution or surface area made that a real potential.

I was just going to post this to you for your examples.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Greetings, today I woke up to find that my flasher wrasse got ammonia burned in QT while I was asleep. I still could barely measure any ammonia using the salifert ammonia test, but the gill burn is obvious. I went to pharmacies and after searching for hours finally found one that would sell me a methylene blue solution, unfortunately the solution ended up being methylene violet. Would that do the trick? Does anyone have any experience? Is it more toxic to fish?

Methylene violet is probably Gentian violet, AKA Methylrosaniline chloride. That is really old school, I've never used it. Herwig's formulary says; "..toxic to many species of fish; use with extreme caution; not particularly effective"

Sound like a big nope to me.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

When I woke up the fish was laying on its side, after a few hours I noticed that the gill area had a deep blood-like color, the fish was heavy breathing and barely able to stand up. After moving it to a temp controlled bowl with clean water it recovered within a few hours, but the redness on the gills remained. The burn is really obvious.

This is typical of ammonia issues - IME

 

[MnFish1]

Cant say this is ammonia burn as it is an assumption but inflamed gills can be caused by flukes and injury and in some cases velvet
Will need more history as even if ammonia burn would be progressive and not sudden which is more common in freshwater. Known as flavobacteria, it is caused by temperature spike, poor water quality, or excess organic compounds in the water and in fish just shipped due to toxicity

I would suggest the fact that the fish was healthy (?) in another aquarium for 2 months previous - that SOMETHING in this tank is irritating the gills. Ammonia measurements would help - Agree more history would help. To the OP - How long was your fish in the shipping process ?