Ammonia levels at 1.0 - 2.0 ppm after Aquariam Move

[Eagle_Steve]

I checked every day after another fish died to make sure nothing was under the rocks. Then once all the fish died I rearranged and checked each rock to make sure nothing was stuck or wedged in between. As far as Brittle Stars or Bristle worms I Can't check now because I am not home but all the time moving the rocks I didn't see anything fall out outside of the sand.

As for the test I tested my tap water to make sure it was accurate and it read my tap water as 0 ppm ammonia so I don't think the test is wrong.

The only thing I could think of that could cause this issue was the sump had a lot of detritus in it and the protein skimmer needed to be cleaned. So I spent all day Saturday thoroughly cleaning all that stuff out .

Nice on checking to make sure there were no more fish and if you did not see anything else dead, it could be a bucnh of gunk and the tank is now playing catch up.

If there is a petco near you, pick up a seachem alert badge on your way home as @MnFish1 stated. It will take it a bit to register once in the tank, but can be used as a secondary test to make sure the tank is safe. They are only a few bucks and handy to have.

I would still do a swish test, to make sure a bunch of crud is not in the rocks. If it is, you can swish all the rocks out of the tank using old tank water to do it. This can help speed things along, as if too much stuff sits there it can prolong the process or become an issue if something knocks a bunch out all at once. Just a rock on top will suffice and will not disturb the tank too much.

Lots of variables here, but a few simple things can be done to check to see if it is an issue or not an issue.

 

[brandon429]

Where’s my full tank picture here for this moved reef


we are on page two, the umps are sure this cycle is stalled Im clear on that. Where’s my full tank pics/ you can see in the work threads provided pics are where the final calls are made-relative to the predictions made on page one here.


we have some predictions in place we can assess as soon as a tank pic is posted. Those pics will decide ammonia status, we can see a crashing tank by looking at it


the disease forum is chock full of complete fish kills in cycled tanks. (To show how fish loss can run independent of cycling)


when I posted the dosing ammonia thread earlier, anyone who reads it can see massive amounts of ammonia are required to sustain overcome a biofilter. Six dead micro brittles can’t do it. Not being able to actually see the source for this massive input in the pics coming up counts, bigtime.

we have bought this stalled cycle lock, stock and barrel. Any reading posted is immediately accepted, that’s our pattern as umpires.


no final call can be made without a clear full tank picture here on this moved days ago reef.

 

[SudzFD]

Where’s my full tank picture here


we are on page two, the umps are sure this cycle is stalled. Where’s my full tank pics/ you can see in the work threads provided pics are where the final calls are made. Relative to the predictions made on page one here

It’s not a stalled cycle when new organic matter is being constantly added. Hasn’t completed the cycle. Bacteria is playing catch-up since likely 75% of it was eliminated in his cleaning endeavors.

 

[cnfarinella]

Where’s my full tank picture here for this moved reef


we are on page two, the umps are sure this cycle is stalled Im clear on that. Where’s my full tank pics/ you can see in the work threads provided pics are where the final calls are made-relative to the predictions made on page one here.


we have some predictions in place we can assess as soon as a tank pic is posted. Those pics will decide ammonia status, we can see a crashing tank by looking at it


the disease forum is chock full of complete fish kills in cycled tanks.

Im not home to take a picture of the tank at the moment

 

[brandon429]

Well then I’ll be on a big cliffhanger till you’re off work heh


cycling nerds care deeply about this stuff as u can see.


why should we even care/ I know this is the undercurrent thought



because millions of dollars in bottle bac sales are propped up by this notion in general. If ammonia isn’t the cause of your fish loss, and we dose bottle bac even though the surface area remaining is already completely full and can’t hold anymore, then we are skipping what it’ll take to keep the next round of fish alive. That’s why it’s worth dorking out over other peoples cycles.


we all seek the proper reef 911 procedure is why. In the chemistry forum, Dan is forwarding amazing studies that show Prime doesn't really do anything to ammonia, and he's showing what the actual protective mechanism is within our reef tanks/this is market-moving stuff.

and groupthink will never get to the bottom of it, only outlier think

 

[MnFish1]

Well then I’ll be on a big cliffhanger till you’re off work heh


cycling nerds care deeply about this stuff as u can see.


why should we even care/ I know this is the undercurrent thought



because millions of dollars in bottle bac sales are propped up by this notion in general. If ammonia isn’t the cause of your fish loss, and we dose bottle bac even though the surface area remaining is already completely full and can’t hold anymore, then we are skipping what it’ll take to keep the next round of fish alive. That’s why it’s worth dorking out over other peoples cycles.


we all seek the proper reef 911 procedure is why. In the chemistry forum, Dan is forwarding amazing studies that show Prime doesn't really do anything to ammonia, and he's showing what the actual protective mechanism is within our reef tanks/this is market-moving stuff.

and groupthink will never get to the bottom of it, only outlier think

I will tell you - with my experiments - using 2 different tanks - I never had a 'bloom' despite the ammonia being 2-4 ppm (total). I agree with you that if there was widespread death - the water should be cloudy. But - according to the OP - the only thing in the tank is 'rock'. there hasn't been time to grow algae. Maybe a question to ask would be 'was there ever a period in your tank that it was cloudy' - because - with all of that death - to me that WOULD be likely. Your point is extremely valid - the test could be wrong. A picture won't prove that. An alert - or a second test would (or a history of cloudy water)

 

[fishguy242]

...

 

[cnfarinella]

I will tell you - with my experiments - using 2 different tanks - I never had a 'bloom' despite the ammonia being 2-4 ppm (total). I agree with you that if there was widespread death - the water should be cloudy. But - according to the OP - the only thing in the tank is 'rock'. there hasn't been time to grow algae. Maybe a question to ask would be 'was there ever a period in your tank that it was cloudy' - because - with all of that death - to me that WOULD be likely. Your point is extremely valid - the test could be wrong. A picture won't prove that. An alert - or a second test would (or a history of cloudy water)

The only time the tank was a little cloudy was when it was being refilled after the move. The fish didn't go back in that time....the fish went back in about 3 hours after the water was in and everything was turned back on

 

[Harold999]

What about inside the minute pore structure of rocks?

These are overrated even more, simply because there is no or hardly any flow there.
The amount of water that goes through the rock is neglibible.

BRS once did an investigation about nitrate consumption by those special ceramic bricks that people have in their sump. It didn't do anything, simply because there is hardly any flow deep inside where the anaerob bacteria live.
Ultra deep sandbeds the same: there is no flow there so how can it significantly consume nitrates.

 

[brandon429]

the water does not have to flow through the rocks in order for them to be the best source of nitrification control in our tanks (discerned by the way rip cleaners have literally cleared off any other competing surfaces, leaving only the rocks to carry the large fish loading that sand + algae + unprepped rocks with algae used to carry_ for seven years running with no losses)


those pits and crevices are retention areas for bacteria that withstand our cleaning. remove a strand of algae, that command uptake region is gone

but we can't scrub bacteria out of micropores as easy, this is why rip clean threads are so consistent in outcome.

what stands out in this thread is an amazing pattern. we aren't dealing with outliers, we are dealing in patterns.

check this out: go onto google and search: stalled reef tank cycle

find any posts I haven't tried to slant in my way lol

click on them, and compare those pictures and lack of any symptoms beyond test kits to the predictions from page one here


its 400 thousand pages of pattern: false stalls backed by api and red sea and nh4 vs nh3 relays.


also a pattern: bait a cycle ump with a high ammonia reading, they bite. as we search out the fifteen or twenty years google has for stuck cycles, how many advisors were in the boat that the reading was real/correctly? 90%. or higher. 10 or 20% relay to them that api is a complete ripoff and among that statement we're finding its not always a total misread

its a mis relay/interpretation of nh4 vs nh3 from the tank owner.

once someone is trained to take their perceived ammonia reading, and reduce it fifteen times lower, then report that number, the fear abates and the proof that rocks are excellent ammonia scrubs/best in the whole tank/ becomes apparent.

 

[MnFish1]

The only time the tank was a little cloudy was when it was being refilled after the move. The fish didn't go back in that time....the fish went back in about 3 hours after the water was in and everything was turned back on

Do you think its possible that the fish death was due to oxygen - or rapid changes in pH - or salinity? (or rapid changes in free ammonia) - ps - so sorry that your fish didn't make it. When I have done tank transfers - it was always within the same day. It could very well be that the time was too long - I agree with the other posts suggesting going back to the moving company. Or your credit card company - that paid for the move. For that much mortality - (unless something in the contract that said not covered) - you should be accorded a discount IMHO

 

[fishguy242]

This is a first post help thread.
BTW, @cnfarinella , WELCOME TO THE REEF..

PLease take the debates to a debate thread.

 

[MnFish1]

the water does not have to flow through the rocks in order for them to be the sole source of nitrification control in our tanks (discerned by the way rip cleaners have literally cleared off any other competing surfaces, leaving only the rocks to carry the large fish loading that sand + algae + unprepped rocks with algae used to carry_ for seven years running with no losses)


what stands out in this thread is an amazing pattern. we aren't dealing with outliers, we are dealing in patterns.

check this out: go onto google and search: stalled reef tank cycle

find any posts I haven't tried to slant in my way lol

click on them, and compare those pictures and lack of any symptoms beyond test kits to the predictions from page one here


its 400 thousand pages of pattern: false stalls backed by api and red sea and nh4 vs nh3 relays.


also a pattern: bait a cycle ump with a high ammonia reading, they bite. as we search out the fifteen or twenty years google has for stuck cycles, how many advisors were in the boat that the reading was real/correctly? 90%. or higher. 10 or 20% relay to them that api is a complete ripoff and among that statement we're finding its not always a total misread

its a mis relay/interpretation of nh4 vs nh3 from the tank owner.

once someone is trained to take their perceived ammonia reading, and reduce it fifteen times lower, then report that number, the fear abates and the proof that rocks are excellent ammonia scrubs/best in the whole tank/ becomes apparent.

Brandon - millions of people use API test kits. Most have no problems if done correctly. Have you done any work on actually testing the test kits? I have - There were no errors - except the error (1/60) that I caused myself. I have certainly never seen a test kit (API) reading 2 when it was actually 0. Again - thats total ammonia - so if the pH was extremely low (or high) - that could greatly skew the results. IMHO - a picture says nothing - another test does

 

[brandon429]

CNFarinella can see this is a constructive thread. not a single thing I've typed has been out of pattern to anything linked, searchable, or relayed.

Inactivity and nonresponse is what new posters don't like, this is good learning. the challenges shape up the offers, I say its all good.

Plus, he wants accurate info not inaccurate, not backed by a single link yet to be posted info



this is tameness compared to quarantine/no quarantine thread


plus, when those pics come end of day and they match the laid out predictions from the prior page

and from all the years you can find on google for ammonia alert posts, we'll have yet more patterns.

recap:

-this tank isn't littered with dying organisms. cut some live rock in half, you don't have worms inside it dying like a stinky knot of dead worms. ammonia alert believers always want us to believe an unknown, unfindable source is pumping out ten ppm a day of raw ammonia.
(per the dosing raw ammonia thread, how much can a reef tank stand and still be at .00x levels nh3 in the thousandths? a LOT)

this post here is full ppm levels, not possible given the description but we have to approach from resolve and patterns already seen in 2016 vs bacterial fear is why I think we all diverge so much on the final call.

-links have been posted that show running reef tanks/7 pages worth/making these same nh4 alert posts. symptomless, no loss reefs posting fear and a group of umpires who fully support their fear, no symptoms required. simply relay a reading, we buy it


-fifty pages of tank transfer work is shown for patterning.

-a 25 page thread showing the dosing of liquid ammonia, far more loading than this reef will ever see, resolved in 5 mins average. Just because someone doesn't own a seneye doesn't mean their dynamics change.

the water posted in pics will be clear, of sufficient dilution, more than enough surface area from already confirmed live rocks who even retained some of their plant matter, this wasn't a rip clean move.


fish loss: can't rule out disease whatsoever. move stress is also a possible, stress in the relocation container

but this actual reef is doing just fine, and future api testing will only drive false fear.

 

[Bato367]

These are overrated even more, simply because there is no or hardly any flow there.
The amount of water that goes through the rock is neglibible.

BRS once did an investigation about nitrate consumption by those special ceramic bricks that people have in their sump. It didn't do anything, simply because there is hardly any flow deep inside where the anaerob bacteria live.
Ultra deep sandbeds the same: there is no flow there so how can it significantly consume nitrates.

Ok.

 

[MnFish1]

CNFarinella can see this is a constructive thread. not a single thing I've typed has been out of pattern to anything linked, searchable, or relayed.

Inactivity and nonresponse is what new posters don't like, this is good learning. the challenges shape up the offers, I say its all good.

this is tameness compared to quarantine/no quarantine thread


plus, when those pics come end of day and they match the laid out predictions from the prior page

and from all the years you can find on google for ammonia alert posts, we'll have yet more patterns.

recap:

-this tank isn't littered with dying organisms. cut some live rock in half, you don't have worms inside it dying like a stinky knot of dead worms. ammonia alert believers always want us to believe an unknown, unfindable source is pumping out ten ppm a day of raw ammonia.
(per the dosing raw ammonia thread, how much can a reef tank stand and still be at .00x levels nh3 in the thousandths? a LOT)

this post here is full ppm levels, not possible given the description but we have to approach from resolve and patterns already seen in 2016 vs bacterial fear is why I think we all diverge so much on the final call.

-links have been posted that show running reef tanks/7 pages worth/making these same nh4 alert posts. symptomless, no loss reefs posting fear and a group of umpires who fully support their fear, no symptoms required. simply relay a reading, we buy it


-fifty pages of tank transfer work is shown for patterning.

-a 25 page thread showing the dosing of liquid ammonia, far more loading than this reef will ever see, resolved in 5 mins average. Just because someone doesn't own a seneye doesn't mean their dynamics change.

the water posted in pics will be clear, of sufficient dilution, more than enough surface area from already confirmed live rocks who even retained some of their plant matter, this wasn't a rip clean move.


fish loss: can't rule out disease whatsoever. move stress is also a possible, stress in the relocation container

but this actual reef is doing just fine, and future api testing will only drive false fear.

No one recommended repeating API tests - a seachem alert badge was recommended

 

[brandon429]

BRS once did an investigation about nitrate consumption by those special ceramic bricks that people have in their sump. It didn't do anything, simply because there is hardly any flow deep inside where the anaerob bacteria live.



I didn't see that post from Harold. agreed fully.

we'd have to make those bricks round and put them in the end of a pipe, with sealing on the side/throughput

water doesn't want to press itself through micro channels sitting in the easy flow of a sump or in the back of a scape, agreed fully.

 

[cnfarinella]

Do you think its possible that the fish death was due to oxygen - or rapid changes in pH - or salinity? (or rapid changes in free ammonia) - ps - so sorry that your fish didn't make it. When I have done tank transfers - it was always within the same day. It could very well be that the time was too long - I agree with the other posts suggesting going back to the moving company. Or your credit card company - that paid for the move. For that much mortality - (unless something in the contract that said not covered) - you should be accorded a discount IMHO

Unfortunately all the tank movers I contacted to do this don't have a guarantee on livestock in the tank. So really cant do much about that

 

[brandon429]

your post stands out very well in that regard too. its hard to pin disease losses on established fish from a given system


however, in the disease forum, thread called "265 reef" that very event occurred. his fish weren't dying until he started messing with the sandbed and we all thought/me included / it was waste poisoning from the bed killing his tank fish. we found out later a small leak for disease had occurred, a few months before the sand event: added a new tang from a pet store.

sidenote: that man was nearly hospitalized with a reef infection so you having a moving company do this may have hidden benefits in the end
re: live rock scrapes


being able to pinpoint fish disease vs true mover's stress, which leaves your tank fish-ready right now, is a big deal for your troubleshoot. if you or he didn't add new wet animals in the last few months, your chances that this is disease drops and you can be assured your tank will carry fish now.


*quarantine them, or order them pre quarantined, or learn this lesson above the hard way

did you add anything new to the system after it was moved, wet items/anything from a pet store, or did the seller before moving this tank to you

 

[brandon429]

the unfortunate steadfast rule is twofold:

if you broken any aseptic chain of command lately and its tied to a fish wipeout, even if some other possible contributor may have caused the fish kill, you must re fallow your system from fish disease and I'd choose the long version, not the short version, because half efforts aren't rock and roll.

full efforts are, complete command in reef cycling is what you want.


to find out what killed your fish is the #1 goal, the ammonia stated as is/nh4/not benched off any other kit/ isn't even a factor whatsoever.



if you feel the chain of disease inputs remained controlled and it was only a move stress, then buy some new fish and add them. make sure they're prepped. we covered that ammonia recovery is always brief, and can't be sustained among a stack of cycled rocks, which you have.


your fish will swim, eat and feed normally because your tank is so cycled. if api shows something wonky, consider the last 2 pages + buy a seneye, you'll feel much better about it all with a $190 meter for something we can predict in all reef tanks to a T, and log it constantly.