An arguement for feeding live foods

[lion king]

While I'm sure some have had long term success with some notoriously difficult to feed ambush predators, I have never met any in person. Fish like the dwarf and medium bodied lions, anglers, and scorpionfish from my experience tend to live longer in captivity, and be more active and vibrant, when fed live food as a substantial amount of their total food.

I know common knowledge today is the 1st order of business is to get them on dead food. Live food is expensive and securing a source for some can be challenging. I know it isn't possible most times to continue a live diet when your predator is housed in a community tank. But if you ever decide; do a predator tank and feed live foods to experience the lions, scorps, and anglers in a more natural way. The hunting and stalking activity is one of the main attractions of these beast, and just as with land predators kept in captivity; you need to stimulate and enrich their environment. I am sure there is something nutritionally beneficial to feeding live food as well.

Many times these fish will take dead food for a while, then just stop eating. Next time you start doing research on feeding fish like dwarf lions, medium bodied lions, anglers, and scorpions; try and find out the real scoop on how long these guys are being kept on a dead only diet. There are likely a few reasons these guys decline after being fed a dead diet, sometimes maybe it's just boredom and it's their way of committing suicide. Sometimes with the dwarf lions, people expect them to eat from the water column, and over time they just languish away.

I feed a live feeding at least once a week, and most times include live in each feeding. I've kept fuzzys for as long as 10 years, and my current longest resident is a 7 year old fu manchu. My volitan get a good variety of dead food, volitans seem to take dead food easily and I have kept them over 10 years on a dead only diet. Here's my current lineup.

 

[Goodair]

Following.
Another topic to discuss is getting live food with no parasites or diseases. I'm still new to preadator fish and try to do alot of research, but this is one of the worries I have about getting live feeders.
I agree with you that live food makes sense on prolonged lifespan. It's like people who exercise thier body/minds tend to be healthier/live longer .

 

[lion king]

Following.
Another topic to discuss is getting live food with no parasites or diseases. I'm still new to preadator fish and try to do alot of research, but this is one of the worries I have about getting live feeders.
I agree with you that live food makes sense on prolonged lifespan. It's like people who exercise thier body/minds tend to be healthier/live longer .

Ghost shrimp, mollies, and guppies kept in a freshwater environment seems to be the safest form of live feeding, or at least has worked for me for 30 years. All 3 of these can live in saltwater and the fish are live bearers, I can't remember why that makes a difference, but it has stuck with me for years. I don't know of any diseases that can transfer from freshwater, and I think a healthy predator will likely even expel any internal parasites. kind of like food poisoning.

Feeding live saltwater fare is a big risk and very very expensive. You would need to do a full qt and treat for internal parasites Most invert sources today mix their systems with fish, so there's still a chance of fish disease being carried.

Keeping a healthy feeder tank may also be beneficial. I dose the tank with vitachem and gut load with omegaone micro pellets. Ill dose the days feeding with selcon or brightwell aminomega from time to time.

 

[Goodair]

Feeding live saltwater fare is a big risk and very very expensive. You would need to do a full qt and treat for internal parasites Most invert sources today mix their systems with fish, so there's still a chance of fish disease being carried.

This was one of my biggest concerns. Both cost and no guarantee on safe food.
I know you mentioned gut loading shrimp and mollies in the passed. I been soaking silvers in vitechem/garlic for my grouper. Once I get a lion and qt it, I'll prob convert the qt tank for holding feeders.
I'm not sure what them being live bearers does either, out side of trying to breed them for feeders.

 

[lion king]

This was one of my biggest concerns. Both cost and no guarantee on safe food.
I know you mentioned gut loading shrimp and mollies in the passed. I been soaking silvers in vitechem/garlic for my grouper. Once I get a lion and qt it, I'll prob convert the qt tank for holding feeders.
I'm not sure what them being live bearers does either, out side of trying to breed them for feeders.

Are you planning for the lion going in with the grouper. One of the challenges to maintaining a live diet is tank mates. Im not as familiar with the groupers but I do know they would welcome live food as well. Just something to consider. Getting food to the lion can be challenging if there are other faster live eaters in the tank.

 

[Goodair]

Are you planning for the lion going in with the grouper. One of the challenges to maintaining a live diet is tank mates. Im not as familiar with the groupers but I do know they would welcome live food as well. Just something to consider. Getting food to the lion can be challenging if there are other faster live eaters in the tank.

Plan on having them in same tank yes, he has been eaten frozen pretty easily. Something I was planning on trying was switching between live and dead, not sure how it will work or even if its a bad idea tbh. At worst, if I can't figure out a way to feed the lion with the grouper, I might just trade in the grouper ( would prefer to keep both ofc). Finding a radiata is proving rather difficult since I'm trying to avoid shipping and not seeing the lion in person before purchase.
If you or anyone else has any ideas or experience, please share. This is what I like about these forums.

 

[lion king]

Plan on having them in same tank yes, he has been eaten frozen pretty easily. Something I was planning on trying was switching between live and dead, not sure how it will work or even if its a bad idea tbh. At worst, if I can't figure out a way to feed the lion with the grouper, I might just trade in the grouper ( would prefer to keep both ofc). Finding a radiata is proving rather difficult since I'm trying to avoid shipping and not seeing the lion in person before purchase.
If you or anyone else has any ideas or experience, please share. This is what I like about these forums.

Radiatas are tough, you may have luck with one eating dead, I never have. I feed my guys dead if they will take it, sometimes they do sometimes they don't. Combo feeding is good, I just prefer to make sure my guys always have something to hunt. The radiatas also tend to be a bit a slow in feeding, so getting them food with other more aggressive eaters will be challenging. I use a rigid airline to push my competing lions out of the way, to control the more aggressive eaters, and to herd the food toward the ones that need more food. What type of grouper is it, is he a slow moving eater or an aggressive eater. You can always fashion something to block the grouper while you feed the radiata at the other end of the tank. If you did want to order one online, this place might be a good bet when they get one in stock. https://fishybusinessaquatics.com/fish/lionfish/radiata-lion-pterois-radiata/

 

[Goodair]

Its a panther, probally 3 inches, he is pretty quick, not sure if there is a difference between fast and aggressive. I'd drop the piece in front of the wave maker to move it and he would chase it thinking its alive, but once it hits the floor or lands on the rock, he completely ignores it. I have 2 "caves/arches" which might be helpful in target feeding but really feels like it will be a crap shot in the end. Do you use the tube to nudge them away or just as a blocker?
Fishybusiness had 2 in stock a few weeks ago, but I'm a lil hesitant on online vendors. I'll keep an eye on them if more come in stock if my lfs can't find one in another month or so.
Yours looks really good tho!

 

[lion king]

Its a panther, probally 3 inches, he is pretty quick, not sure if there is a difference between fast and aggressive. I'd drop the piece in front of the wave maker to move it and he would chase it thinking its alive, but once it hits the floor or lands on the rock, he completely ignores it. I have 2 "caves/arches" which might be helpful in target feeding but really feels like it will be a crap shot in the end. Do you use the tube to nudge them away or just as a blocker?
Fishybusiness had 2 in stock a few weeks ago, but I'm a lil hesitant on online vendors. I'll keep an eye on them if more come in stock if my lfs can't find one in another month or so.
Yours looks really good tho!

I'm actually pretty aggressive with the stick, I'll hook them and push them across the tank if one is being particularly piggie and I'm trying to get food to another in the tank.(lol) Once the food hits the substrate you can also use a stick and flick the food up to create movement, and he might grab it.

 

[Thales]

Find a local clownfish breeder and get their culls, a great source of live food that will just be killed anyway.

 

[ReefQueen]

Great info as usual, but your pic posting abilities need suspended until I can set up my own little pred tank! I’m dying of jealousy over here lol.

 

[lion king]

Another issue when providing a dead diet is getting them to take a variety of foods. Krill is usually the easiess and usually the 1st dead food many will take. The getting them to take other foods can be very challenging or impossible. Many of my lions and little scorp will eat krill all day long. Even though I get human grade krill it would still not be good to exclusively feed it to them, do research on exclusively feeding krill. The other mistake people make it expecting them to catch bits of food in the water column as the whole tank is being fed. People watch them catch bits of mysis, etc, and think all is well. They are usually not getting close to the substance they need, and then just slowly lanquish away. As an example, a 2" dwarf lion will double in size within a year, then start slowing down in growth. A gut loaded live food source is a complete nutrional package, and even feeding gut loaded ghosties exclusively would be a safe bet.

 

[lion king]

Let's expand a bit on the pitfalls of establishing or trying to establish a dead only diet. Disclaimer: I do not have an internet degree in Predatory Fish Nutrition, nor do I consider myself an expert. These are just my observations and experience by keeping these specific types of fish, with some success. I consider success several years, not several months; I've just seen such a high mortality rate within this group so I thought I would share my experiences. It would be a great addition to the discussion if some that have had long term success keeping any of these guys on a dead only diet, to share their experience and methods.

There is always an exception, it's obviously not absolute, but these are some of the common pitfalls I've seen while feeding a dead diet. In regards to the dwarf and medium bodied lions. People get their lions to start taking food from the water column, they will eat mysis, flake, pellets, etc. The hobbyist think all is well, be mindful of how much these guys are really consuming. In smaller lions you can almost see them growing, if they don't start to get a somewhat stocky appearance and you can't chart their growth, they are not consuming enough. I have heard this many times, "my lion was eating great, everything I fed the tank, then he just died", usually after a few months. I ask, "how much was he consuming, could you say the total amount would be equivalent to an entire cube of mysis per inch of lion in a week". the answer is always "no, not near that much", and this is on the light side of the total amount they need.

Another common story I hear, "he was eating krill every day for a year then he just died". 1st feeding everyday isn't good, they actually need time between feeding to properly process their food. Many of the lions will take krill, then that it all they will every eat, If you are set in feeding a dead diet, you must start getting them to other foods. If you are able to get them eating various chunks of meaty foods, even enhanced with supplements, you will get the long term results.

This seems to happen with almost all of the predatory fish I've kept, they will just stop taking the dead food, period. You can sometimes get them feeding on dead food, sometimes for months, then one day they just stop taking it. By this time many of these guys are housed with other fish that would make it impossible to reintroduce live foods. In the case of anglers and scorps, even in a species tank, I have seen these guys refuse to ever eat again, even live.

You will really enjoy and be fascinated by these guys if you plan a predatory species only tank and incorporate live feedings on a routine basis.

 

[lion king]

These guys aren't really that active right, some may even say even sedentary; but, turn their tank into a hunting ground and you'll get a much more interesting display of activity. If you keep your little lions in a small tank and feed them a dead only diet, you'll likely end up with a fish that perches most of the day and just waits on you to feed them. Give them more room to roam and something to chase down, and they'll be so much more active. Most people have never seen lions as active as the ones in my tanks. Here's a random shot of my lion's reef.

Feed an angler or scorp on a stick and you may as well get a silicone ornament, you'll likely never see them move, or find them in the same spot all the time. Anglers aren't known to be swimmers, turn their tank into a hunting ground, and they may surprise you. My anglers always took off randomly to do some hunting recon. Here's a shot of one of my warty's swims that he took a few times a day.

I always thought the rhino just hung out on the substrate, my scorps are cruising all the tank and finding a high vantage to hunt. When I drop a molly in he paraglides off of his high perch and chases it down. Alot more fun than feeding with a stick.

 

[lion king]

In summary, with the exception of the volitan lion, you can not 100% count on any of the species mentioned to thrive long term on a dead only diet. You are not guaranteed you will be able to wean them to dead food at all, so please understand this, and at the least be committed to feed them a live diet if your plans to feed dead fails.

My rhino was taking silversides, then over the last month, absolutely refuses, I am feeding him large live mollies again, and it ain't cheap. My old fu ate dead krill and whitefish for years, over the last year or more, absolutely not; I even have to target her with a live fish once a week just to make sure she gets enough to eat. I have never seen an angler live more than a few months after feeding a dead only diet, leaf scorpionfish a little longer but the usually goes the same way. You usually don't hear much about the medium bodied lions, like the antennata and radiata because there just not alot of these being kept long term, I would bet because of difficulty in feeding.

Although I have known some keeping fuzzies on a dead only diet, still only keeping them for only a couple years or so, I do believe there can be some success here. I have kept one for over 3 years and had to give him away while he was still eating a dead only diet. I trained him to come up to the top of the tank to feed, I'd turn the pumps off and drop chunks of various meats for him to pick off while floating in the water column. this did evolve over time, so it does take patience and perseverance. The zebra appears very similar in disposition, so there may be some chance with these as well, even though I've never seen seen it yet.

When you research feeding these guys, make sure your source is actually talking longterm, not just a couple/few months. More times than not they will take dead for a while, then stop, or become challenging all over again. Every time you transport them, like from the lfs to your qt, or your qt to your dt; the challenge resets. Any changes in your dt or your feeding schedule or method can trigger a reset, or maybe even boredom on their part. The mortality rate for these guys are very high, I've even had lfs tell me they only bring them in special order, because so many die; so please make your decision to keep one of these guys with as much understanding as possible.

While feeding is perhaps the most challenging part of keeping these guys, they are also very prone to internal parasites. Many times they are being fed dying and disease fish along the way. I have found keeping them in an observation tank, fattening them up right away with live food, then treating with general cure to be a very effective method. The success stories you hear online are one in a thousand, are you going to be dedicated enough to be a success keeping these guys.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Great article. A lot of what you are saying crosses over to the non predator tanks as well.

I had a nice predator tank long ago. I used to feed them feeder goldfish amoung other things Not sure if that is still in. I always liked silversides and ghost shrimp as well. I also found my guys were more receptive to food that moved for them to hunt. I never fed anything that would hit the floor right away. They turned up their nose.

Side note, hope goodair has fairly big tank. If he ends up with a volitain and panther grouper together they willl need plenty of room.

I currently feed my tangs, anthias, cardinals, etc frozen but they also get nori and fresh clams aka PaulB method. Feeding fresh can be cheap depending on how you do it. I buy fresh clams and freeze them. I Just got 18 clams for $8 sat. That’s the same as a block of frozen. Never had an issues

I say, fresh is best. Thanks for the good write up.

 

[Peace River]

In summary, with the exception of the volitan lion, you can not 100% count on any of the species mentioned to thrive long term on a dead only diet. You are not guaranteed you will be able to wean them to dead food at all, so please understand this, and at the least be committed to feed them a live diet if your plans to feed dead fails.

My rhino was taking silversides, then over the last month, absolutely refuses, I am feeding him large live mollies again, and it ain't cheap. . . .

Interesting article and thank you for sharing. What volume of mollies do you feed for your setup? Would it be possible to feed small cichlids (.5 to 1 inch)? Mollies have about 10-30 fry each month but some cichlids have 300-500 every 20 days or so. If this would work then maybe you could raise at least some of your own live food? I am interested in your theory of feeding freshwater fish to saltwater predators to reduce or eliminate the transfer of diseases.

 

[lion king]

I can't post quotes, don't know why.

Raising my own mollies would save me money, I have done that before. But it's about time, I don't have the time to do that, and it takes alot of time to grow them out to the size I need.

I don't know of any diseases found in freshwater that will transfer to a marine tank. Maybe there are some, but I have never experienced it. These guys many times come in with internal parasites and/or worms and effectively clearing them 1st thing is imperative. I have never had one of my preds get any sort of parasite or worms from the fresh water fare I feed.

I do supplement my live feedings with some dead food. Weekly I get 2-4 large mollies, 4 smaller mollies or fancy guppies, 20 feeder guppies, and 75 ghosties; that's about $25 a week.

Not sure about the cichlid thing. Although what I feed is pretty much dispatched as soon they hit the water; mollies, guppies, and ghosties can live in sw. I have on occasion seen some that have escaped initial dispatch and see them cruising around, to be hunted down as a midnight snack.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Beautiful tanks!

Can you please tell us more about the ribbon eel?

 

[Goodair]

Side note, hope goodair has fairly big tank. If he ends up with a volitain and panther grouper together they willl need plenty of room.

The panther would get traded in once it gets too big. The lion on the other hand is something I wanted to keep long-term whixh is why I was looking at the antenata or radiata. A vol would prob outgrow a 90g in a year or 2 sadly.