Angry Phosphate Man: Mitigating High Phosphates In Your Reef Aquarium

[jda]

There are some of those comments in this thread too... this page actually.

We have talked about this before, but the vast majority of people who mention your tank think that it is full-out success and that everybody can do the same thing with anything that they want. You have opined before that this is not your total intent. I think that too few people understand what we have discussed in these past few posts that the thriving corals in these conditions are a subset. I have opined that I don't think that you are clear enough about what is going on and you do have more of a responsibility to do just that since you have put yourself in a position of an authority with the articles and speaking engagements, but also struggle since it seems that nobody can really teach anybody anything that they don't want to learn (like how N and P are not food). I could make the case that the other flippant comments have come from your lead as an authority... it would be over-ruled as argumentative, but it should/could make you think a little bit since you appear to be an intelligent and thoughtful dude.

I cannot recall one person who referenced your tank, articles or presentations mentioning to other people that you can have great results with higher N and P if you are willing to let go the things that will waste away and just focus on those that make it.

I would especially like people to understand that the amount of ammonia/ammonium in the tank from the NPS feeding is what is helping the corals with nitrogen, and not the residual level of no3, but this is a P thread, so I will just leave it at a single run-on sentence.

 

[Thales]

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[Thales]

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[Thales]

There are some of those comments in this thread too... this page actually.

We have talked about this before, but the vast majority of people who mention your tank think that it is full-out success and that everybody can do the same thing with anything that they want. You have opined before that this is not your total intent. I think that too few people understand what we have discussed in these past few posts that the thriving corals in these conditions are a subset. I have opined that I don't think that you are clear enough about what is going on and you do have more of a responsibility to do just that since you have put yourself in a position of an authority with the articles and speaking engagements, but also struggle since it seems that nobody can really teach anybody anything that they don't want to learn (like how N and P are not food). I could make the case that the other flippant comments have come from your lead as an authority... it would be over-ruled as argumentative, but it should/could make you think a little bit since you appear to be an intelligent and thoughtful dude.

I cannot recall one person who referenced your tank, articles or presentations mentioning to other people that you can have great results with higher N and P if you are willing to let go the things that will waste away and just focus on those that make it.

I would especially like people to understand that the amount of ammonia/ammonium in the tank from the NPS feeding is what is helping the corals with nitrogen, and not the residual level of no3, but this is a P thread, so I will just leave it at a single run-on sentence.

I don't think most people on forums care that much and want easy answers. It gets tiring trying to roll the boulder up that hill, and bloody my forehead on that wall. I have employed different strategies at different times, sometimes flippant is on the menu, sometimes detail is.
I have thought a great deal about this over time, so the only counter you will get from me when you think I should approach things the way you want me to is that I have indeed thought about it and done it many different ways and that I look forward to reading more of the way you want to do it (which is the same kind of thing that got me started writing for the hobby in the first place).
Having run a plethora of tanks lots of different ways, and watched in real time other aquarists run tanks different ways, I think every tank is a game of attrition, not just my home tank.
Mostly, I don't want to fight with people anymore, and don't want to try to convince people that they should have a deeper understanding instead of trying to follow a recipe. The work is out there for people to reference, and just like with any kind of work, I don't control what people take away from it. So, I just leave some differently flavored breadcrumbs around in the hope that some people will want to follow them and roll the boulder a tiny bit farther, and commiserate with me about our bloody foreheads.

YMMV

 

[vlangel]

My phosphates have gotten quite high but I use macro algae to keep nuisance algae in check. My reef has 16 fish plus ornamental shrimp and propagating grass shrimp in the fuge. With that many animals in a 56 g display and 30 g fuge with 20g sump, high phosphates are inevitable. Having a fuge full of feather caulerpa, red grape caulerpa and shoal seagrass takes up an enormous amount of nitrates and phosphates. The macro algae grows at a tremendous rate and I prune it weekly as a means of exporting nutrients. I actually have to feed 3Xs a day to support the macro algae growth but I love seeing so many fat, happy colorful active fish in the display. At this point I do not even test my nitrates or phosphates, I just observe my soft coral and LPS coral along with the macro algae and sponges and if they are happy then so am I. This method works very well for me and my tank stays pretty clean and is easy to maintain.

 

[schuby]

I don't think most people on forums care that much and want easy answers.

Some of us do care and want to understand. New members on this site are unable to discern fact from fiction. I'm sure you are weary of answering the same questions, over and over and over again, but when you imply that growing SPS is easy and simple, then a lot of people believe you. Your tank is beautiful and that gives you instant credibility. When those with new tanks fail, they assume that it is only because they are incapable.

The younger generations post far more often and have many crazy, unproven methods that greatly influence new members. They literally overwhelm them with their volume of posts. Having people on here with long-term, successful tanks (like yours) say what they actually do and why (intent) is invaluable to the others on here that also want long-term, successful tanks.

I'm grateful for all of those with successful tanks that have passed the test of time and that choose to share their experiences. No matter if they're SPS, LPS, mixed or fish-only, knowing details about them helps others to also have these beautiful, wondrous, full-of-life tanks in our lives.

 

[Thales]

Some of us do care and want to understand. New members on this site are unable to discern fact from fiction.

That is why I wrote/write articles and make sure they are available. Forums have always been problematic in terms of discerning fact from fiction - I even wrote an article specifically about that!

I'm sure you are weary of answering the same questions, over and over and over again, but when you imply that growing SPS is easy and simple, then a lot of people believe you. Your tank is beautiful and that gives you instant credibility. When those with new tanks fail, they assume that it is only because they are incapable.

Where have I implied that growing SPS is easy and simple? I certainly don't feel that way and don't think I am implying that, but if I am I would like to stop.

Thanks!

 

[jda]

You imply it by leading with the edge case of your high N and P without quantifying all of the outliers. The message that you say that you want to get across is not getting across. You need to lead with the outlier and quantifying what is really happening and then build backwards. Also, don't put yourself in a position of leadership or authority if you don't want to bang your head against the wall... you cashed the checks (literally, figuratively or whatever) so do the work.

Do you really think that people leave your presentation thinking, "I need to think about what I want to keep and how I want to keep stuff if I want to have higher N and P?" Most leave thinking "I don't have to worry about N and P since this guy doesn't" and have no idea what their limitations are going to be. If that is truly not your intention, then change it up.

It needs to go like this... I have a tank with high N and P levels. This costs me in this way... I get benefit in this way... If you can live with both the costs and the benefits, then keep reading... The people WHO NEED TO KNOW THE MOST don't see the costs. You need to lead with the costs and limitations and work backwards. This might not work well for a skeptic, but it will for a real leader or authority.

What people see is jokes about sewage and corals spawning and that everybody else who does not do it this way is foolish since you are a skeptic. I have never seen you once flat out say that there are corals that you cannot keep in your tank - you could have and I just missed it. You agree with other posters who say it. This is where people get the implication.

 

[Thales]

You imply it by leading with the edge case of your high N and P without quantifying all of the outliers. The message that you say that you want to get across is not getting across. You need to lead with the outlier and quantifying what is really happening and then build backwards. Also, don't put yourself in a position of leadership or authority if you don't want to bang your head against the wall... you cashed the checks (literally, figuratively or whatever) so do the work.

Not an edge case. I think you think you are assuming a different message than I actually have. In phosphate discussions I am discussing phosphate philosophy - converting that to 'SPS are easy' seems nutty. The detailed articles are easy to find and I often link them. I have done the work. I continue to do the work. The work is there. Posting on forums is not the work. I banged my head against the wall a whole lot on forums, way more than whatever checks you think I cashed are worth.

Do you really think that people leave your presentation thinking, "I need to think about what I want to keep and how I want to keep stuff if I want to have higher N and P?"

I address that specifically. Another example - in one talk I spent 5 minutes talking about how there is no best salt, but people really want there to be a best salt. I went into why. I detail. In the q and a, I still got the question, asked seriously, "what is the best salt".

Most leave thinking "I don't have to worry about N and P since this guy doesn't" and have no idea what their limitations are going to be. If that is truly not your intention, then change it up.

Most leave thinking that? How can you possibly know that? How many of my talks have you attended, and what exit interviews have you done with other attendees?

It needs to go like this... I have a tank with high N and P levels. This costs me in this way... I get benefit in this way... If you can live with both the costs and the benefits, then keep reading... The people WHO NEED TO KNOW THE MOST don't see the costs. You need to lead with the costs and limitations and work backwards. This might not work well for a skeptic, but it will for a real leader or authority.

That is addressed in the articles and talks. It doesn't need to go like that - you want it to go like that. You are not me. If you want it to go like that, if you don't like how I write or talk, I look forward to your articles and talks on the subject. Be the real leader you want to see leading

What people see is jokes about sewage and corals spawning and that everybody else who does not do it this way is foolish since you are a skeptic. I have never seen you once flat out say that there are corals that you cannot keep in your tank - you could have and I just missed it. You agree with other posters who say it. This is where people get the implication.

You have just missed it. I have never called anyone foolish for not doing it 'this way' - the exact opposite. I cannot be responsible for people missing things or not bothering to read further or do basic research or for making incorrect implications based of short forum posts without reading the posts that came before or not reading the linked articles. Forums are not the work, forums are ongoing conversations. People need to look deeper

 

[SixtyFeetUnder]

Undetectable phosphates. Run bare bottom, high flow, religious once a week 10% water change and siphon sitting detritus, weekly microbactor 7 low nutrient dose, heavy skimming, carbon and UV. I feed two times a day plus nori and have no nitrate or phosphate issues.

 

[Emerson]

I test with Hanna ULR and hope for levels in the 0.02-0.05 ppm range.

I feed heavy, but use skimming, a refugium, and mix GFO in with my carbon in a single reactor 1:2 when my PO4 levels edge closer to 0.10 ppm.

I would much, much rather have PO4 a little higher than bottomed out. My last tank build was my first with dry rock. Worried about a bad cycle and "leeching" PO4 from the rock (I think that may be a Grassy Knoll theory), I ran a separate GFO reactor for a year and had PO4 levels at dead 0. Then my NO3 levels bottomed out and I fought cyano and dinos for 6-8 months.

It's my anecdotal experience, but true zero on PO4 not only starves your corals, but is an invitation to some other issues.

 

[RC Corals]

I personally feel the biggest ongoing issue for current newer reefers is that they immediately tend to overcomplicate their tanks before they even know what their specific tank needs. Then when problems arise they have no clue what the real source of the problem is or what to change/adjust to fix that specific issue.
They see photos everywhere of complex sump systems and try to replicate that thinking that's what's needed to succeed rather than starting a basic tank, watching, learning, and upgrading as the tank needs in order accomplish their goals.

But that approach isn't sexy for Instagram or Facebook.

 

[7gsreef]

I run GFO to help keep my phosphate levels under control. I keep my phosphates levels around .08 - .15. Once my levels reach .15 I know its time to change out my GFO.

I love my Hanna ULR phosphate checker.

I woke up with the exact reading today. Lol. Im going to go buy some gfo rn.

I currently have a 3 week old reef with my first phosphate swing

 

[Lyss]

This is maybe weird — IDK… Since my tank is an AIO nano I added some red ogo and ulva tied to rocks directly to the display for a bit after my cycle was over. I did that to help manage nutrients as I began adding fish and getting them eating, and also to add some color while the tank was still too new for corals. Worked pretty well, they grew a ton, and then I removed them after a few months to replace w/my first corals.

Had to be like 2 months after I’d removed it when ulva started popping up on the rocks. I thought oh no b/c I’d read horror stories on here from ppl who were frustrated w/ulva making it to their display and taking over. But TBH it hasn’t been bad. I let it do it’s thing and periodically trim or pull some where it gets unruly. It does help w/nutrients, and along w/coralline makes the rocks look more natural. I also think it helps keep bad algae from taking hold on the rocks. I don’t mind pruning it, kinda like I do for the plants in my FW tank. I’m actually into the idea of adding more macroalgae to the tank — maybe something like halimeda — and sponges, tunicates, etc to make it look more natural.

I check phosphates about once or twice a week, and initially they were undetectable. Now I feed a bit more and they typically test at .06 or somewhere near that, and I’m happy with that.

 

[7gsreef]

This is maybe weird — IDK… Since my tank is an AIO nano I added some red ogo and ulva tied to rocks directly to the display for a bit after my cycle was over. I did that to help manage nutrients as I began adding fish and getting them eating, and also to add some color while the tank was still too new for corals. Worked pretty well, they grew a ton, and then I removed them after a few months to replace w/my first corals.

Had to be like 2 months after I’d removed it when ulva started popping up on the rocks. I thought oh no b/c I’d read horror stories on here from ppl who were frustrated w/ulva making it to their display and taking over. But TBH it hasn’t been bad. I let it do it’s thing and periodically trim or pull some where it gets unruly. It does help w/nutrients, and along w/coralline makes the rocks look more natural. I also think it helps keep bad algae from taking hold on the rocks. I don’t mind pruning it, kinda like I do for the plants in my FW tank. I’m actually into the idea of adding more macroalgae to the tank — maybe something like halimeda — and sponges, tunicates, etc to make it look more natural.

I check phosphates about once or twice a week, and initially they were undetectable. Now I feed a bit more and they typically test at .06 or somewhere near that, and I’m happy with that.

do you water change? My goal was to water change as least as possible i need to check phosphates after work today.