Another Dino thread - Please help!! On the verge of giving up!

[AdamUK80]

I’m nearing the end of my tether…close to considering scrapping all corals and running a dino farm for my fish… if anyone can help me out and give some advice on where to go from here I’d be so grateful because I’m all out of ideas…

So I’m going to give as much detail as I can here so that if there’s anyone out there that can help, you’ve got all the info I’ve got to give…

Setup

• Reefer 170 with ATO
• RO Unit to make my own water using Red Sea Coral Pro Salt
• Bubble-Magus C3.5 Skimmer
• Bubble-Magus mini 70WP reactor with PhosEx
• Jecod Sw-2 Powerhead
• Jecod DCT-2000 pump (20w 2000L/H)
• V2 ILumenAir Compact 70w LED light
• Ample live rock
• Block of Marine Pure in the sump

Lighting Schedule

V2 light has 3 channels, A - White, B - Blue, C - Red

• 05:30-10:00 – White 2%, Blue 2%, Red 2%
• 10:00-11:00 – White 13%, Blue 50%, Red 5%
• 11:00-16:00 – White 65%, Blue 90%, Red 5%
• 16:00-17:00 – White 13%, Blue 50%, Red 5%
• 17:00-18:30 – White 0%, Blue 40%, Red 0%

(Reds are kept low as I was told by LFS that it encourages algae growth)

Stock

Pair of clowns, cardinal, yellow belly damsel, royal gramma, goby (I forget which type – he’s not a sand sifter I know that).

Clean-up crew – various turbo and nassarius snails (or what’s left of them – only 3-4), few emerald crabs (although only ever see 1 nowadays), 2 x hermits, cleaner shrimp

Corals all softies, no SPS

Regular Dosing

• Iodene
• Nopox
• Carbon in a bag in the sump

History

Tank started Nov 2017 – started very slowly under close guidance of my LFS (Oasis Aquarium, Manchester UK). Started with a good amount of live rock. Cycled very slowly for several weeks, corals went in first then several months before any fish.

After a few weeks of being in, clowns developed some red patches which LFS thought may have been ammonia burn, this led me back then to question the capacity of the natural filter system so added a block of Marine Pure to the sump (probably unnecessary but I figured you can never have too much filtration…)

Treated the tank with Marine Anti-Bacterial and made a full recovery, still going strong.

Slowly built up over first 18 months-2 years adding fish and coral, everything thriving and the tank looking great. This is an old photo just at the turning point about 2 years in where i started to notice the odd coral struggling but it was largely still very healthy and went on to grow coraline algae everywhere after this.

How do I think Dino’s started?

Long story but I used to take my water to the LFS to get tested and was usually always in good shape but started to get the odd bit of algae and then discovered Nopox.

In my naivety at the time I thought the cleanest water was the best water over time, I started to lose mushrooms and couldn’t understand why. After finding slime in the filter socks learnt the hard way that I was overdosing Nopox… (dosage was set based on last LFS test and never adjusted). I had N03 / P04 tests but they were crap, I’ve since invested in my own better No3 / Po4 tests.

I cut back Nopox accordingly and reduced water changes for a while and then spotted a couple of spots of the dreaded bubble algae… I battled that for weeks on end, manual removal, emerald crabs, nothing touched it and it spread like wild fire… In the end I resorted to Vibrant. To its credit Vibrant got rid of the bubble algae in 2-3 weeks but that then opened the door for a red Cyano outbreak!!

Here you can see the very start of the bubble algae outbreak, it got significantly worse...

I battled that for weeks on end with manual removal, increased flow, reduction of lighting (in particular red), it kept coming back in the end I resorted to Chemiclean…again it wiped out the cyano pretty quickly but upset a lot of the corals.

Over time things started to settle and coral reopen and went through a period of really good growth, things were blooming! My trumpets went crazy and were growing a new head every couple of weeks.

Then I noticed the cyano was coming back… so again I treated with Chemiclean but this time it didn’t touch it…I considered a second dose but the corals were that ticked off that I instead tried a blackout. 3 days later they were gone but came back within hours of taking the covers off and slowly starting the lights back up.

I started to develop a brown fuzz on the rocks and assumed it was some type of algae so invested in an urchin and a small Kole Tang. The urchin did eat away at it but couldn't keep up and the sand bed was such a mess. The tang never settled, it picked at the rocks when it first went in hid a lot, couldn't get it to eat anything, tried frozen, seaweed, it hid all day until eventually i never saw it again... I can only assume the poor thing starved and the clean up crew polished it off...

At this point I read up and heard about dinos…and have been battling them for the past 12 months.

Treatment Attempts

I haven’t identified with a scope but I’m certain they’re dinos I did the basic filter test and within 15 mins they had reformed into structures, I added H202 and no bubbles. It blows off the rocks easily, disappears during lights out and is back within 20 mins of them coming on. Added to this snails started to act strange, lying dormant for days at a time or on their backs and eventually died.

So, after watching Youtube vids that talk about nutrients, I went crazy on water changes in an attempt to reduce nutrients, siphoned the sand bed etc. no joy, they just got worse and started to turn into a darker thicker looking brown/red substance on the rocks.

I read somewhere people had success with increased doses of Vibrant so introduced that twice a week rather than once.

Did multiple 3-5 days blackouts with and without H202, still they came back.

As a last resort I tried Dino-X… no joy other than upsetting corals and the urchin… I left it a clear week or 2 in between and tried a second dose which pretty much straight away killed off the urchin – still the Dino’s prevail.

I then read about the dirty method on the forums here and abandoned water changes all together, stopped cleaning the glass, cut the Phosex, stopped the Nopox, increased feeding slightly… At this point I’d lost so much coral from all the chemical disruption and instability, mushrooms shrivelled and disintegrated, xenia turned to mush, Zoa’s all closed and shrivelled…and feel the slowly increasing nutrients aren’t helping. None the less, I’ve decided to ride it out and let things creep up, N03 over 10ppm and P04 at visible levels.

I used to see all sort of pods swimming around in the sump and in the sand when i stirred it up and i think the combination of treatments and running the tank too clean killed them all off. So having read about the importance of biodiversity i've started with Dr Tim's Waste Away and Pure Reef Balance balls in the sump to increase bacteria.

Current State

GHA started to grow at pace and I’m still losing corals on a daily basis, plate coral is almost gone and trumpets on their last legs… Oddly whilst some zoas are close to death, others are doing much better. Coraline algae is receding heavily and the sand bed looks like a snail’s graveyard, empty shells everywhere, the only saving grace my fish continue to be happy!

I’m now testing daily, using the standard weekly dose of Vibrant and a combination of water changes (every 2 weeks) and Nopox to keep nutrients stable – N03 is just under 10ppm and PO4 0.03. I think I could do with getting the N03 lower for the sake of the corals but anymore Nopox and the PO4 disappears, is there were dosing phosphate comes in?

It’s so devastating to look back of the pictures of what it once was to where it is now…

Shots from various points over recent weeks/months:

Spaghetti coral now in pieces and covered in algae along with all the snail shells..

Ignore what looks like a white sand bed, i just stirred it up!

And these are some of the most recent with the white light turned up so you can see the full extent...

I’m really not sure where to go from here…it’s clear I’ve got a toxic form of dinos based on the snails (potentially could that also be what’s killing off coral???) but not sure what’s left in the treatment arsenal…

Some suggest UV, others say don’t bother, some say raise magnesium, I don’t currently dose anything as the Red Sea Salt contains everything or so I’m told… I don’t mess around with my PH and have never tested it as the LFS said stability is more important than chasing a number but is this something to try??? Raising salinity or temp??

I’ve no idea where to go now and just feel I’m throwing good money after bad. I need a new clean up crew but if they're just going to die again i question the point till the dinos are gone and I would invest in a UV solution but again is there any real point??

If anyone can get me out of this I’ll be forever indebted to you!!

PLEASE HELP!!

 

[qhduong]

Try raising temp to 82*, feed more, and lights out 1 more time?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Is the last picture the most recent? If so, it looks like your problem now is just hair algae. If that's the case, your playbook is going to be different than when you were battling dinoflagellates. It's also a good sign as hair algae is usually easier to remediate than dinoflagellates.

This video from BRS is a good summary of nuisance algae issues. Give some of these suggestions a try. Keep running carbon, manually remove what you can and don't drive nutrients too low during the process.

Above all else, keep in mind that you've been having issues for a long time. It's going to take a long time to resolve.

 

[AdamUK80]

Is the last picture the most recent? If so, it looks like your problem now is just hair algae. If that's the case, your playbook is going to be different than when you were battling dinoflagellates. It's also a good sign as hair algae is usually easier to remediate than dinoflagellates.

This video from BRS is a good summary of nuisance algae issues. Give some of these suggestions a try. Keep running carbon, manually remove what you can and don't drive nutrients too low during the process.

Above all else, keep in mind that you've been having issues for a long time. It's going to take a long time to resolve.

Oh no believe me the Dino's are still absolutely there, I had just before taking the photo stirred up the sand which was daft, I'll post another pic tomorrow and you'll see them in full force...

 

[mtdaly85]

So while I'm far from an expert, I was able to successfully defeat a nasty outbreak of dinos (ostreopsis and large amphidinium) mixed with cyanobacteria. I have no trace of either in my system and now I'm just dealing with some annoying red planaria flatworms... ugh

I think you should really explore the UV option. I added a simple 55 watt UV sterilizer to my 130 gallon tank and it made a noticeable difference. I believe the UV damages the DNA of the dino cells and they are unable to reproduce. I also heard they have a very short lifespan so once you prevent them from being able to reproduce, the outbreak can be stopped. The problem is, not every dino cell gets pulled through the UV. Therefore, if you don't address the underlying problem (nutrient imbalance / lack of biodiversity), they will come back. If you have ostreopsis, you'll notice a HUGE difference in as little as 36 hours.

If you have amphidinium dinos, you'll likely need to remove a large portion of your sandbed. Amphidinium tends to "hide out" in the sand rather than go for a ride in the water column. UV tends to be less effective against amphidinium. You'll need to go the route of increasing biodiversity (bottled bacteria, pods, etc.) to help fight those.

I'd try dosing chemiclean again. You likely have some cyano mixed in there as well.

You need to really look at this issue as being multiple pest bacterias / organisms. The three nasties I listed above (ostreo, amph, and cyano) all require three very different methods of removal and mitigation. Stay strong and know that you can absolutely beat this. Good luck, man!

 

[AdamUK80]

So while I'm far from an expert, I was able to successfully defeat a nasty outbreak of dinos (ostreopsis and large amphidinium) mixed with cyanobacteria. I have no trace of either in my system and now I'm just dealing with some annoying red planaria flatworms... ugh

I think you should really explore the UV option. I added a simple 55 watt UV sterilizer to my 130 gallon tank and it made a noticeable difference. I believe the UV damages the DNA of the dino cells and they are unable to reproduce. I also heard they have a very short lifespan so once you prevent them from being able to reproduce, the outbreak can be stopped. The problem is, not every dino cell gets pulled through the UV. Therefore, if you don't address the underlying problem (nutrient imbalance / lack of biodiversity), they will come back. If you have ostreopsis, you'll notice a HUGE difference in as little as 36 hours.

If you have amphidinium dinos, you'll likely need to remove a large portion of your sandbed. Amphidinium tends to "hide out" in the sand rather than go for a ride in the water column. UV tends to be less effective against amphidinium. You'll need to go the route of increasing biodiversity (bottled bacteria, pods, etc.) to help fight those.

I'd try dosing chemiclean again. You likely have some cyano mixed in there as well.

You need to really look at this issue as being multiple pest bacterias / organisms. The three nasties I listed above (ostreo, amph, and cyano) all require three very different methods of removal and mitigation. Stay strong and know that you can absolutely beat this. Good luck, man!

Thanks buddy, I think I'll speak to my LFS about realistic UV options, the cabinet is already quite tightly packed so not sure where I'll fit it but hopefully work something out. The tank is only 170l / 45 gallons so hopefully a small unit will cover it.

I have hit it twice with chemiclean (which does upset the corals) and saw zero impact so I'm not so sure there's any cyano left in there but I guess I could give it another go...

I'm thinking to get a UV on there then hopefully reintroduce a clean up crew to get on top of the algae.

What's your thoughts on a safe level of nitrate/phosphate for the corals... Nitrates need to be more like 3ppm don't they? In which case I might need to increase nopox and then does phosphate to keep that present?

 

[eag]

I am just getting over a dino outbreak myself and can share what I've learned

I then read about the dirty method on the forums here and abandoned water changes all together, stopped cleaning the glass, cut the Phosex, stopped the Nopox, increased feeding slightly… At this point I’d lost so much coral from all the chemical disruption and instability, mushrooms shrivelled and disintegrated, xenia turned to mush, Zoa’s all closed and shrivelled…and feel the slowly increasing nutrients aren’t helping. None the less, I’ve decided to ride it out and let things creep up, N03 over 10ppm and P04 at visible levels.

This worked for me, however my nitrates and phosphates were at 0. I think there can be a lot of reasons for dino (and there are certainly a _lot_ of different kinds), but if your levels aren't 0 and dino is still strong then I don't think this method will work for you.

It blows off the rocks easily, disappears during lights out and is back within 20 mins of them coming on.

Some Dino's go into the water column at night. Mine didn't, but some do. For those that do, folks report UV at night to work wonders.

GHA started to grow at pace and I’m still losing corals on a daily basis, plate coral is almost gone and trumpets on their last legs… Oddly whilst some zoas are close to death, others are doing much better. Coraline algae is receding heavily and the sand bed looks like a snail’s graveyard, empty shells everywhere, the only saving grace my fish continue to be happy!

I lost some corals and almost all my snails to dino toxin. I ran carbon to try to pull it out.

Is the last picture the most recent? If so, it looks like your problem now is just hair algae. If that's the case, your playbook is going to be different than when you were battling dinoflagellates. It's also a good sign as hair algae is usually easier to remediate than dinoflagellates.

You'll definitely want to know what the case is here. It is common for Dino's to recede and leave a different outbreak in it's wake

 

[mtdaly85]

Thanks buddy, I think I'll speak to my LFS about realistic UV options, the cabinet is already quite tightly packed so not sure where I'll fit it but hopefully work something out. The tank is only 170l / 45 gallons so hopefully a small unit will cover it.

I have hit it twice with chemiclean (which does upset the corals) and saw zero impact so I'm not so sure there's any cyano left in there but I guess I could give it another go...

I'm thinking to get a UV on there then hopefully reintroduce a clean up crew to get on top of the algae.

What's your thoughts on a safe level of nitrate/phosphate for the corals... Nitrates need to be more like 3ppm don't they? In which case I might need to increase nopox and then does phosphate to keep that present?

My UV didn't fit in the sump. I hooked it up to a 230 gph pump and put the pump in the display (suction cupped to the tank wall) for 2 days and then put it in the sump for another week. It looked really messy for the duration of the treatment, but it really made a huge difference.

I'd target nitrate / phosphates around 10 / 0.10, respectively.

Your best appraoch is probably:

- Run UV for 2 days in the display, another 5 days in the sump. Keep skimmer running wet the entire time to pull out all the nasty sludge. Keep your carbon running as well since ostreopsis is very toxic. Change the filter socks frequently and siphon out as much as you can.

- Run the skimmer a bit drier so it doesn't pull out too much and then just feed heavily to get your nitrates and phosphates up to the targeted levels.

- Continue to siphon / suck out any remaining clumps.

- Consider dosing beneficial bacteria, pods, other biodiversity once the UV blasting is over.

 

[Butcher333]

I think if you don’t have a sump with macro then this is why you’re having the issues. You have a lot of livestock and my opinion is that water changes and chemicals to treat one issue will lead to another which seems like you have described. Macro is a good competitor to all of the issues you have described. If you have eliminated one of your issues you have not necisarily removed the components of what they were, so in a sense you’re just chasing your problems around while they become different forms. Your display is having a hard time because you don’t have a fuge I think. I personally don’t think water changes are a way to reduce waste and your biological load is high regardless of testing. With a fuge you would be removing something(plant material). I’ll give you an example. You have a freshwater tank with a lot of built up waste in different forms and algae is out of control. I take and filter the gravel and do an 80% water change and add an assortment of plants and scape it real nice. Even though I didn’t remove all of the black beard hair algae and had clumps attached to rocks, over the next week the algae turned light gray and then white and is now gone. It would be pointless for me to test for nitrate because I know the result would be .00ppm and my plants will continue to grow and I will not dose anything. I can feel your pain and you do have a nice tank, so sorry you’re going through these issues. I’ve lost a few tanks for a variety of reasons too. I‘m just now getting back into it again with a new build. Maybe one of those external cylinder turf scrubbers would do the trick and avoid the plumbing into a refugium. I hope you don’t lose anymore livestock and are able to remedy this.

 

[Moscar]

I’m nearing the end of my tether…close to considering scrapping all corals and running a dino farm for my fish… if anyone can help me out and give some advice on where to go from here I’d be so grateful because I’m all out of ideas…

So I’m going to give as much detail as I can here so that if there’s anyone out there that can help, you’ve got all the info I’ve got to give…

Setup

• Reefer 170 with ATO
• RO Unit to make my own water using Red Sea Coral Pro Salt
• Bubble-Magus C3.5 Skimmer
• Bubble-Magus mini 70WP reactor with PhosEx
• Jecod Sw-2 Powerhead
• Jecod DCT-2000 pump (20w 2000L/H)
• V2 ILumenAir Compact 70w LED light
• Ample live rock
• Block of Marine Pure in the sump

Lighting Schedule

V2 light has 3 channels, A - White, B - Blue, C - Red

• 05:30-10:00 – White 2%, Blue 2%, Red 2%
• 10:00-11:00 – White 13%, Blue 50%, Red 5%
• 11:00-16:00 – White 65%, Blue 90%, Red 5%
• 16:00-17:00 – White 13%, Blue 50%, Red 5%
• 17:00-18:30 – White 0%, Blue 40%, Red 0%

(Reds are kept low as I was told by LFS that it encourages algae growth)

Stock

Pair of clowns, cardinal, yellow belly damsel, royal gramma, goby (I forget which type – he’s not a sand sifter I know that).

Clean-up crew – various turbo and nassarius snails (or what’s left of them – only 3-4), few emerald crabs (although only ever see 1 nowadays), 2 x hermits, cleaner shrimp

Corals all softies, no SPS

Regular Dosing

• Iodene
• Nopox
• Carbon in a bag in the sump

History

Tank started Nov 2017 – started very slowly under close guidance of my LFS (Oasis Aquarium, Manchester UK). Started with a good amount of live rock. Cycled very slowly for several weeks, corals went in first then several months before any fish.

After a few weeks of being in, clowns developed some red patches which LFS thought may have been ammonia burn, this led me back then to question the capacity of the natural filter system so added a block of Marine Pure to the sump (probably unnecessary but I figured you can never have too much filtration…)

Treated the tank with Marine Anti-Bacterial and made a full recovery, still going strong.

Slowly built up over first 18 months-2 years adding fish and coral, everything thriving and the tank looking great. This is an old photo just at the turning point about 2 years in where i started to notice the odd coral struggling but it was largely still very healthy and went on to grow coraline algae everywhere after this.

How do I think Dino’s started?

Long story but I used to take my water to the LFS to get tested and was usually always in good shape but started to get the odd bit of algae and then discovered Nopox.

In my naivety at the time I thought the cleanest water was the best water over time, I started to lose mushrooms and couldn’t understand why. After finding slime in the filter socks learnt the hard way that I was overdosing Nopox… (dosage was set based on last LFS test and never adjusted). I had N03 / P04 tests but they were crap, I’ve since invested in my own better No3 / Po4 tests.

I cut back Nopox accordingly and reduced water changes for a while and then spotted a couple of spots of the dreaded bubble algae… I battled that for weeks on end, manual removal, emerald crabs, nothing touched it and it spread like wild fire… In the end I resorted to Vibrant. To its credit Vibrant got rid of the bubble algae in 2-3 weeks but that then opened the door for a red Cyano outbreak!!

Here you can see the very start of the bubble algae outbreak, it got significantly worse...

I battled that for weeks on end with manual removal, increased flow, reduction of lighting (in particular red), it kept coming back in the end I resorted to Chemiclean…again it wiped out the cyano pretty quickly but upset a lot of the corals.

Over time things started to settle and coral reopen and went through a period of really good growth, things were blooming! My trumpets went crazy and were growing a new head every couple of weeks.

Then I noticed the cyano was coming back… so again I treated with Chemiclean but this time it didn’t touch it…I considered a second dose but the corals were that ****** off that I instead tried a blackout. 3 days later they were gone but came back within hours of taking the covers off and slowly starting the lights back up.

I started to develop a brown fuzz on the rocks and assumed it was some type of algae so invested in an urchin and a small Kole Tang. The urchin did eat away at it but couldn't keep up and the sand bed was such a mess. The tang never settled, it picked at the rocks when it first went in hid a lot, couldn't get it to eat anything, tried frozen, seaweed, it hid all day until eventually i never saw it again... I can only assume the poor thing starved and the clean up crew polished it off...

At this point I read up and heard about dinos…and have been battling them for the past 12 months.

Treatment Attempts

I haven’t identified with a scope but I’m certain they’re dinos I did the basic filter test and within 15 mins they had reformed into structures, I added H202 and no bubbles. It blows off the rocks easily, disappears during lights out and is back within 20 mins of them coming on. Added to this snails started to act strange, lying dormant for days at a time or on their backs and eventually died.

So, after watching Youtube vids that talk about nutrients, I went crazy on water changes in an attempt to reduce nutrients, siphoned the sand bed etc. no joy, they just got worse and started to turn into a darker thicker looking brown/red substance on the rocks.

I read somewhere people had success with increased doses of Vibrant so introduced that twice a week rather than once.

Did multiple 3-5 days blackouts with and without H202, still they came back.

As a last resort I tried Dino-X… no joy other than upsetting corals and the urchin… I left it a clear week or 2 in between and tried a second dose which pretty much straight away killed off the urchin – still the Dino’s prevail.

I then read about the dirty method on the forums here and abandoned water changes all together, stopped cleaning the glass, cut the Phosex, stopped the Nopox, increased feeding slightly… At this point I’d lost so much coral from all the chemical disruption and instability, mushrooms shrivelled and disintegrated, xenia turned to mush, Zoa’s all closed and shrivelled…and feel the slowly increasing nutrients aren’t helping. None the less, I’ve decided to ride it out and let things creep up, N03 over 10ppm and P04 at visible levels.

I used to see all sort of pods swimming around in the sump and in the sand when i stirred it up and i think the combination of treatments and running the tank too clean killed them all off. So having read about the importance of biodiversity i've started with Dr Tim's Waste Away and Pure Reef Balance balls in the sump to increase bacteria.

Current State

GHA started to grow at pace and I’m still losing corals on a daily basis, plate coral is almost gone and trumpets on their last legs… Oddly whilst some zoas are close to death, others are doing much better. Coraline algae is receding heavily and the sand bed looks like a snail’s graveyard, empty shells everywhere, the only saving grace my fish continue to be happy!

I’m now testing daily, using the standard weekly dose of Vibrant and a combination of water changes (every 2 weeks) and Nopox to keep nutrients stable – N03 is just under 10ppm and PO4 0.03. I think I could do with getting the N03 lower for the sake of the corals but anymore Nopox and the PO4 disappears, is there were dosing phosphate comes in?

It’s so devastating to look back of the pictures of what it once was to where it is now…

Shots from various points over recent weeks/months:

Spaghetti coral now in pieces and covered in algae along with all the snail shells..

Ignore what looks like a white sand bed, i just stirred it up!

And these are some of the most recent with the white light turned up so you can see the full extent...

I’m really not sure where to go from here…it’s clear I’ve got a toxic form of dinos based on the snails (potentially could that also be what’s killing off coral???) but not sure what’s left in the treatment arsenal…

Some suggest UV, others say don’t bother, some say raise magnesium, I don’t currently dose anything as the Red Sea Salt contains everything or so I’m told… I don’t mess around with my PH and have never tested it as the LFS said stability is more important than chasing a number but is this something to try??? Raising salinity or temp??

I’ve no idea where to go now and just feel I’m throwing good money after bad. I need a new clean up crew but if they're just going to die again i question the point till the dinos are gone and I would invest in a UV solution but again is there any real point??

If anyone can get me out of this I’ll be forever indebted to you!!

PLEASE HELP!!

OK:
1st - don't quit!
2nd - watch the BRS videos on dinos....alagae...you will be happy that you did. Game changer. Take it easy and remember it will take time to correct.

 

[Baronen]

I’m nearing the end of my tether…close to considering scrapping all corals and running a dino farm for my fish… if anyone can help me out and give some advice on where to go from here I’d be so grateful because I’m all out of ideas…

So I’m going to give as much detail as I can here so that if there’s anyone out there that can help, you’ve got all the info I’ve got to give…

Setup

• Reefer 170 with ATO
• RO Unit to make my own water using Red Sea Coral Pro Salt
• Bubble-Magus C3.5 Skimmer
• Bubble-Magus mini 70WP reactor with PhosEx
• Jecod Sw-2 Powerhead
• Jecod DCT-2000 pump (20w 2000L/H)
• V2 ILumenAir Compact 70w LED light
• Ample live rock
• Block of Marine Pure in the sump

Lighting Schedule

V2 light has 3 channels, A - White, B - Blue, C - Red

• 05:30-10:00 – White 2%, Blue 2%, Red 2%
• 10:00-11:00 – White 13%, Blue 50%, Red 5%
• 11:00-16:00 – White 65%, Blue 90%, Red 5%
• 16:00-17:00 – White 13%, Blue 50%, Red 5%
• 17:00-18:30 – White 0%, Blue 40%, Red 0%

(Reds are kept low as I was told by LFS that it encourages algae growth)

Stock

Pair of clowns, cardinal, yellow belly damsel, royal gramma, goby (I forget which type – he’s not a sand sifter I know that).

Clean-up crew – various turbo and nassarius snails (or what’s left of them – only 3-4), few emerald crabs (although only ever see 1 nowadays), 2 x hermits, cleaner shrimp

Corals all softies, no SPS

Regular Dosing

• Iodene
• Nopox
• Carbon in a bag in the sump

History

Tank started Nov 2017 – started very slowly under close guidance of my LFS (Oasis Aquarium, Manchester UK). Started with a good amount of live rock. Cycled very slowly for several weeks, corals went in first then several months before any fish.

After a few weeks of being in, clowns developed some red patches which LFS thought may have been ammonia burn, this led me back then to question the capacity of the natural filter system so added a block of Marine Pure to the sump (probably unnecessary but I figured you can never have too much filtration…)

Treated the tank with Marine Anti-Bacterial and made a full recovery, still going strong.

Slowly built up over first 18 months-2 years adding fish and coral, everything thriving and the tank looking great. This is an old photo just at the turning point about 2 years in where i started to notice the odd coral struggling but it was largely still very healthy and went on to grow coraline algae everywhere after this.

How do I think Dino’s started?

Long story but I used to take my water to the LFS to get tested and was usually always in good shape but started to get the odd bit of algae and then discovered Nopox.

In my naivety at the time I thought the cleanest water was the best water over time, I started to lose mushrooms and couldn’t understand why. After finding slime in the filter socks learnt the hard way that I was overdosing Nopox… (dosage was set based on last LFS test and never adjusted). I had N03 / P04 tests but they were crap, I’ve since invested in my own better No3 / Po4 tests.

I cut back Nopox accordingly and reduced water changes for a while and then spotted a couple of spots of the dreaded bubble algae… I battled that for weeks on end, manual removal, emerald crabs, nothing touched it and it spread like wild fire… In the end I resorted to Vibrant. To its credit Vibrant got rid of the bubble algae in 2-3 weeks but that then opened the door for a red Cyano outbreak!!

Here you can see the very start of the bubble algae outbreak, it got significantly worse...

I battled that for weeks on end with manual removal, increased flow, reduction of lighting (in particular red), it kept coming back in the end I resorted to Chemiclean…again it wiped out the cyano pretty quickly but upset a lot of the corals.

Over time things started to settle and coral reopen and went through a period of really good growth, things were blooming! My trumpets went crazy and were growing a new head every couple of weeks.

Then I noticed the cyano was coming back… so again I treated with Chemiclean but this time it didn’t touch it…I considered a second dose but the corals were that ****** off that I instead tried a blackout. 3 days later they were gone but came back within hours of taking the covers off and slowly starting the lights back up.

I started to develop a brown fuzz on the rocks and assumed it was some type of algae so invested in an urchin and a small Kole Tang. The urchin did eat away at it but couldn't keep up and the sand bed was such a mess. The tang never settled, it picked at the rocks when it first went in hid a lot, couldn't get it to eat anything, tried frozen, seaweed, it hid all day until eventually i never saw it again... I can only assume the poor thing starved and the clean up crew polished it off...

At this point I read up and heard about dinos…and have been battling them for the past 12 months.

Treatment Attempts

I haven’t identified with a scope but I’m certain they’re dinos I did the basic filter test and within 15 mins they had reformed into structures, I added H202 and no bubbles. It blows off the rocks easily, disappears during lights out and is back within 20 mins of them coming on. Added to this snails started to act strange, lying dormant for days at a time or on their backs and eventually died.

So, after watching Youtube vids that talk about nutrients, I went crazy on water changes in an attempt to reduce nutrients, siphoned the sand bed etc. no joy, they just got worse and started to turn into a darker thicker looking brown/red substance on the rocks.

I read somewhere people had success with increased doses of Vibrant so introduced that twice a week rather than once.

Did multiple 3-5 days blackouts with and without H202, still they came back.

As a last resort I tried Dino-X… no joy other than upsetting corals and the urchin… I left it a clear week or 2 in between and tried a second dose which pretty much straight away killed off the urchin – still the Dino’s prevail.

I then read about the dirty method on the forums here and abandoned water changes all together, stopped cleaning the glass, cut the Phosex, stopped the Nopox, increased feeding slightly… At this point I’d lost so much coral from all the chemical disruption and instability, mushrooms shrivelled and disintegrated, xenia turned to mush, Zoa’s all closed and shrivelled…and feel the slowly increasing nutrients aren’t helping. None the less, I’ve decided to ride it out and let things creep up, N03 over 10ppm and P04 at visible levels.

I used to see all sort of pods swimming around in the sump and in the sand when i stirred it up and i think the combination of treatments and running the tank too clean killed them all off. So having read about the importance of biodiversity i've started with Dr Tim's Waste Away and Pure Reef Balance balls in the sump to increase bacteria.

Current State

GHA started to grow at pace and I’m still losing corals on a daily basis, plate coral is almost gone and trumpets on their last legs… Oddly whilst some zoas are close to death, others are doing much better. Coraline algae is receding heavily and the sand bed looks like a snail’s graveyard, empty shells everywhere, the only saving grace my fish continue to be happy!

I’m now testing daily, using the standard weekly dose of Vibrant and a combination of water changes (every 2 weeks) and Nopox to keep nutrients stable – N03 is just under 10ppm and PO4 0.03. I think I could do with getting the N03 lower for the sake of the corals but anymore Nopox and the PO4 disappears, is there were dosing phosphate comes in?

It’s so devastating to look back of the pictures of what it once was to where it is now…

Shots from various points over recent weeks/months:

Spaghetti coral now in pieces and covered in algae along with all the snail shells..

Ignore what looks like a white sand bed, i just stirred it up!

And these are some of the most recent with the white light turned up so you can see the full extent...

I’m really not sure where to go from here…it’s clear I’ve got a toxic form of dinos based on the snails (potentially could that also be what’s killing off coral???) but not sure what’s left in the treatment arsenal…

Some suggest UV, others say don’t bother, some say raise magnesium, I don’t currently dose anything as the Red Sea Salt contains everything or so I’m told… I don’t mess around with my PH and have never tested it as the LFS said stability is more important than chasing a number but is this something to try??? Raising salinity or temp??

I’ve no idea where to go now and just feel I’m throwing good money after bad. I need a new clean up crew but if they're just going to die again i question the point till the dinos are gone and I would invest in a UV solution but again is there any real point??

If anyone can get me out of this I’ll be forever indebted to you!!

PLEASE HELP!!

What is the ID for the stuff on the glass in these last pics? I have this exact stuff in my tank and can’t get rid of it

 

[AZMSGT]

Try raising temp to 82*, feed more, and lights out 1 more time?

Try the 82 thing

Is This the Dinoflagellate Treatment We’ve all been Hoping for? | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Being a reef aquarists, means dealing with nuisance algae, parasites, and other pests… Cyanobacteria, AEFW, Red Bugs, and who here remembers that pink cotton candy algae (Callithamnion)?

reefbuilders.com

 

[Dan_P]

You might be beyond the point of being able to repair this system. Consider rip cleaning it. @brandon429 can advise.

 

[dwest]

You can get rid of these. Really.

1. Buy a cheap microscope and ID them.
2. Remove things that are reducing nutrients. This includes marine pure block, phosex, nopox.
3. Keep GAC running, ideally through a reactor but sump may be OK. Replace it weekly for now. 1/2 - 1 cup per 100 gallons. I would run it instead of the phosphate remover.
4. Make sure you have measurable nitrates and phosphates.
5. Don’t add any chemical or other Dino cures. Only do water changes.
6. Based on #1decide if UV will help. If UV will help, then you need to get it big enough, with correct flow, and placement in your DT. Otherwise it won’t help.
7. If amphidinium, consider removing sand. That’s what I had to do.
8. Manually remove dinos frequently (at least a couple times per week).

Let me know if I can help.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed Dan I think we could pattern that tank like the rest. And, I have a nearly matching pre work shot from another tank with after pics agreed.

Wanted to rattle off reasons I like this idea, for this tank above.

-Consider the initial color palette shifting I like that macro clue in assessment shots. We have brights/purples/blues n reds and some pop in first shot. the rocks have dark features, the junction between sand and glass is unpigmented; clean lines and no accumulation zones.

then in the last setting there's the hue shifting, a selection of browns and cremes and gold tones and sloughing is present from some tissue loss and compounding within the system. epibenthic growths stack on one another, covering up the purples and reds and darks from the rocks


we need to unplug all that manually. waiting for it internally will work but my gosh the after pics in our sand rinse thread are pic 1 restoration shots, why wait.

the orp is not as ideal in the second shot, these are accumulated organics stacked on catch mats and fronds of projecting algae/co growths/that change the color palette to the forms that select for benthic shifting like plants and matted organisms- and animals not associated with high flow friging reef zones, which is more like the top pic. they're acid producing communities not associated with highly oxygenated zones; this is slow eutrophication creeping above.

the current phase is just part of the shifting.

i recommend we rip clean first, and then deal with any growback as the typical dino arrangements: balanced N and P ratios, maybe introduce some competing pods, make sure white light levels are much lower than prior and instate windex blue tanking lol (because less whites and heavy blues drive down these shifts I dont know why)

here are specific works to peruse and see what you think about manhandling this reef into compliance. we build lots of work off the approach thanks for the heads up.

overview:

we are disassembly cleaning your tank. rinsing sand in tap (not crazy, see 200 jobs) and we are rinsing your rocks in saltwater, probably removed tankwater before its thrown out.

scrape and brush off rock invaders that have accumulated. rinse in saltwater, you can be harsh these rocks will retain their filtration bacteria and allow a *skip cycle reassembly* which is why a rip clean is nice, you get to start clean and fresh and not recycle. you can preserve your current life left vs leave it in loss.


put peroxide on areas of rocks you had to knife-scrape algae loose from attachment (dinos will wash away via saltwater rinsing and flow down the sink as waste)

once you have rocks that no longer have pent up waste inside (they do now for sure) and have the coverage forcefully removed and saltwater rinsed, set them aside for reuse.
have your sandbed 100% clean rinsed in cold tap water, in 5 gallon buckets until its snowglobe day 1 clear.

clear rocks cannot cloud when you re set up. and we preserved all filter bac in this job. they dont unstick from saltwater rinsed rocks.


clean tapwater rinsed sand is like new day 1, even cleaner. There's no silt. you are taking your sandbed out and blasting it clean.


lastly, all new water. Unideal, but the current state isn't ideal and I have 200 jobs to show why its worth it to consider. re acclimate in your fish and corals

Dont hold fish and live rocks together when taken apart/that can kill fish. Hold them in drawn off tankwater that is clear, before you begin to remove things and foul the water.

hold corals with fish is ok, but not sources of detritus like rocks and sand, we need to clean those away from sensitive creatures.

you now have a like-new tank, and any regrowths are fractional compared to current. and they arent blanketing the system, catching feed, preventing live rock waste expression.

here are your jobs to inspect if considering a total-control approach:

1. Jons job which is a tank your size and about that much rock and animals and corals. His is a clean system, he's post dinos here but ripping his tank now 3x also hasnt caused them either.

120 gallon rip clean

I’ve decided to perform a rip clean on my 120 with 100% new water. The tank has been running for 5 years and was battling Dino for several months. I used the bacteria method from elegant corals and worked great I haven’t seen Dino in months now. But I tried several other methods including...

www.reef2reef.com

2. this is a the sand rinse thread where for 5 years we've been part-cleaning tanks. patterns galore

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

There is no rule or benefit in dinos or any other invasion that benefits from the full on mass invaded condition. You can see from our thread about 90% of fixes are one pass, the other 10% they toil in prevention but the tank never looks like first pic...robbing communal organisms of community has benefits if you're trying to take back ground.