Answer like I’m a 5th grader

[zbrusko]

I hear (and use) so many terms like “nutrients” & “organics” and use a skimmer, socks, ats scrubber, carbon and tbh, I can’t say I am super clear on what is what. I understand the basics of mechanical/chemical/bio filtration but in an aquarium, what are organics? Are the nitrogen and phosphate I measure inorganic? What does my skimmer remove vs what does it prevent? What I mean is, is it removing waste that will eventually become something else chemically? What does carbon remove? What does a refugium or ats remove? Is it more than just “nutrients”. Do any of these filtration methods remove amino acids or phyto added for corals snd/or pods? Does a refugium have any overlap with carbon in terms of what it removes from the water? A nice tutorial on this in one place would be very helpful for a lot of beginners. If one already exists, please point me to it. Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

These questions are very, very long and complicated to answer. I don’t not have time to explain the whole world if reef chemistry at any level in a single post. I’m not sure you understand how lengthy it would be.

Organics are defined as any chemical compound containing both hydrogen and carbon. There are a couple of exceptions that fit that definition but are inorganic (carbonic acid and bicarbonate).

Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phosphate contain no carbon and are inorganic.

Skimmers remove lots of things, and skimmate will contain some of everything in the water, but is enriched in dissolved organics, particulates, bacteria, and more. It cannot selectively remove ammonia, nitrate or phosphate.

All photosynthetic organisms in a reef tank can take up various forms of N, such as ammonia or nitrate, phosphate, and many trace elements.

 

[Dan_P]

I hear (and use) so many terms like “nutrients” & “organics” and use a skimmer, socks, ats scrubber, carbon and tbh, I can’t say I am super clear on what is what. I understand the basics of mechanical/chemical/bio filtration but in an aquarium, what are organics? Are the nitrogen and phosphate I measure inorganic? What does my skimmer remove vs what does it prevent? What I mean is, is it removing waste that will eventually become something else chemically? What does carbon remove? What does a refugium or ats remove? Is it more than just “nutrients”. Do any of these filtration methods remove amino acids or phyto added for corals snd/or pods? Does a refugium have any overlap with carbon in terms of what it removes from the water? A nice tutorial on this in one place would be very helpful for a lot of beginners. If one already exists, please point me to it. Thanks!

Great questions! You will get answers soon.

Right now I’ll just say the term “organics” is virtually useless. Besides being unmeasured in aquaria and poorly defined as to what it is in the context of most discussions, the connection between it and whatever good or bad effects it has is conjecture based on anecdotal evidence. Activated carbon and foam fractionation, and to some extent aragonite and GFO, are known to adsorb certain classes of organic compounds. Little is known about how much actually is removed in an aquarium or if removal is really all that important. Right now “organics” is in the class of words like “biodiversity”: sounds like it should mean something important but ask a couple question about it and you will see alot of hand waving and story telling.

 

[Submerge]

Great thread tagging in to watch.

 

[UncommonSense]

what are organics? Are the nitrogen and phosphate I measure inorganic?

The simplest way I can put this is how my college horticultural professor described hydroponics!

Organics are “compounds”… many items from the periodic table of elements stuck together… organic compounds are not “edible” to a plant unless bacteria “composts” them down to “elements”, such as nitrogen! — this process takes appreciable time…

Elements are the likes of nitrogen, phosphate, calcium, etc… things you would find on the periodic table of elements! — these are the water soluble elemental nutrients your test kits read, and what a plant would actually consume for food!

Here’s a great example from that classes textbook showing how either organic, or elemental fertilizer can be used for food, via different processes!

(Note: for the purposes of differentiation, elemental = inorganic!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The simplest way I can put this is how my college horticultural professor described hydroponics!

Organics are “compounds”… many items from the periodic table of elements stuck together… organic compounds are not “edible” to a plant unless bacteria “composts” them down to “elements”, such as nitrogen! — this process takes appreciable time…

Elements are the likes of nitrogen, phosphate, calcium, etc… things you would find on the periodic table of elements! — these are the water soluble elemental nutrients your test kits read, and what a plant would actually consume for food!

Here’s a great example from that classes textbook showing how either organic, or elemental fertilizer can be used for food, via different processes!

(Note: for the purposes of differentiation, elemental = inorganic!

Ok, I’d want to stop that discussion in its tracks as much of it is wrong. 5th grade or not, I do not want incorrect info in a thread like this.

 

[UncommonSense]

Ok, I’d want to stop that discussion in its tracks as much of it is wrong. 5th grade or not, I do not want incorrect info in a thread like this.

I apologize! Sharing incorrect information is the last thing I want to do…

Where did I go wrong in this explanation?

— I know it’s an explanation based off a different field of biology; but shouldn’t the differentiation between organic compounds and mineral salts ring true across the board?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I apologize! Sharing incorrect information is the last thing I want to do…

Where did I go wrong in this explanation?

— I know it’s an explanation based off a different field of biology; but shouldn’t the differentiation between organic compounds and mineral salts ring true across the board?

I gave the definition of organic above . Carbon and hydrogen are all that’s needed. Other compounds or molecules of any size are deemed inorganic.

Not all elements are water soluble.

Many inorganics are compounds, not elements.

Phosphate is not an element. It contains the elements phosphorus and oxygen.

Macroalgae, corals, and other organisms can take up both organic and inorganic compounds.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I hear (and use) so many terms like “nutrients” & “organics” and use a skimmer, socks, ats scrubber, carbon and tbh, I can’t say I am super clear on what is what. I understand the basics of mechanical/chemical/bio filtration but in an aquarium, what are organics? Are the nitrogen and phosphate I measure inorganic? What does my skimmer remove vs what does it prevent? What I mean is, is it removing waste that will eventually become something else chemically? What does carbon remove? What does a refugium or ats remove? Is it more than just “nutrients”. Do any of these filtration methods remove amino acids or phyto added for corals snd/or pods? Does a refugium have any overlap with carbon in terms of what it removes from the water? A nice tutorial on this in one place would be very helpful for a lot of beginners. If one already exists, please point me to it. Thanks!

Refugia and ats remove N, P, and a lot of minor and trace elements. They add back organics to the water.

Granular activated carbon can remove some trace elements as well as its main purpose: to bind dissolved organics.

 

[CHSUB]

If one already exists, please point me to it. Thanks!

Here is a great place to start, there is about 50 pages dedicated to your question…. ignore the dog.

 

[bjsreefer]

I hear (and use) so many terms like “nutrients” & “organics” and use a skimmer, socks, ats scrubber, carbon and tbh, I can’t say I am super clear on what is what. I understand the basics of mechanical/chemical/bio filtration but in an aquarium, what are organics? Are the nitrogen and phosphate I measure inorganic? What does my skimmer remove vs what does it prevent? What I mean is, is it removing waste that will eventually become something else chemically? What does carbon remove? What does a refugium or ats remove? Is it more than just “nutrients”. Do any of these filtration methods remove amino acids or phyto added for corals snd/or pods? Does a refugium have any overlap with carbon in terms of what it removes from the water? A nice tutorial on this in one place would be very helpful for a lot of beginners. If one already exists, please point me to it. Thanks!

The chemistry has been explained a lot, but I can take a bit too. The protein skimmer like many have said is helping to remove many of the organics and some nutrients as well- really anything that’s not just saltwater and trace elements. Think of it as when you go to the beach and see the seafoam. That’s the ocean’s natural way to remove hydrocarbons (that is what makes the frothy foam) and other chemicals/bacteria/stuff that’s in the water and shouldn’t be.

The Refugium or any macro/micro algae helps to bring the nitrogen cycle full circle. Animals breathe oxygen and expire carbon dioxide. They also generally (coral being an exception, kind of) excrete nutrients by way of ammonia and ammonia containing compounds. Bacteria in your tank and in the world break down that ammonia into nitrate and decomposition releases phosphate as well, NO3 and PO4, respectively. Plants (and corals) then utilize the nitrate and phosphate to fuel their growth. Keep in mind that plants don’t actually export those nutrients on their own. Th e only way to export them is to remove the algae from your tank via filtration or manual removal. It’s out of the water column but it’s still technically in your tank.

The reason why corals also “eat” nitrate and phosphate is because the zooxanthellae that give them their color are actually photosynthetic plants that also need that phosphate and nitrate to survive and give the corals their beautiful color. Corals then eat those zooxanthellae, which is why they need light and many can survive only on that light. They’re essentially manufacturing their own food.

Hope I didn’t say anything wrong there but that’s my understanding of it!

 

[bjsreefer]

Oh and as far as if skimmer prevent other things from developing, yes. Skimmers will many times filter out dissolved detritus and organic compounds that could potentially break down into excess nitrate or phosphate, again with proper maintenance.

And activated carbon does the same thing in a tank that it does in a human. It binds to organics and toxins and adsorbs them, removing them from the water. It’s why paramedics will give it to people with dangerous blood-alcohol levels- does the same thing to us as it does to your tank!

 

[zbrusko]

This has all been very helpful. Thanks to all who’ve commented.