Anyone using probiotics?

[LobsterOfJustice]

Does anyone have information on this product? Would like to know more information about it or if anybody is using it.

http://m.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4726

 

[JonB]

Numerous products and AD schemes are designed to make one belive constant addition of them is needed.

I think they get this cue from the human probiotic industry where we know that most of the bacteria in probiotic supplements only survive for a day or two once they get to our guts. Consistent and constant supplementation of a probiotics is seemingly needed in humans but I do not think we know if it is needed for saltwater aquariums. Some of the bacterial strains within aquarium probiotics might survive and establish a population or they might die/be removed/eaten within a short period of time. More research needs to be done.

 

[NS Mike D]

I picked up a live clam the other day, put it through the blade ginder and broadcast fed the tank. everyone seems to snap up the tiny bits. i presume the mother nature "probiotics" that were in the ocean water from where that clam was harvested is now in my tank.

I am enjoying a belgian double trappist ale I brewed. Lot's of probiotics in that. It's not just my fish and corals that enjoy probiotics.

I'd love for @PaulB to drop in and share his experience introducing gut bacteria in to his tanks for 40+ years

 

[JonB]

I'd love for @PaulB to drop in and share his experience introducing gut bacteria in to his tanks for 40+ years

Is there a thread on this?

 

[NS Mike D]

Is there a thread on this?

I am not sure he has one here, he had on on another site - one of the longest threads I have ever read. He doesn't QT his fish. I hope not to butcher his approach, but best I can tell, he harvests clams and mussels from out local waters as well pod loaded mud. This, presumably, helps develop strong immune systems, not to mention healthy fish that do a lot of hanky panky in his tank.

 

[cpschult]

The final paper I did to earn my Masters degree was based on probiotic usage (although it was in humans- a review in gut microbial colonization along with usage of probiotics in prevention of neonatal enterocolitis) and I am extremely interested in this area. Although it is extremely early in the planning stages, later this year there is a CHANCE that I will investigate the microbiome in a way that has not been done in saltwater/reef tanks as of yet (it related to this thread because we might be looking for volunteers that use probiotics in their tanks, along with Zeovit, along with those who do and don't skim... etc). I can't say a whole lot yet because it is in the planning stages but we might get some better answers about using probiotics in reef tanks.

It doesn't seem that companies share a whole lot of info about what they put in their probiotics used in reef tanks ("proprietary.."). Also, there is very little oversight over probiotics (even in human supplementation) so I would suggest that this could be true for aquarium probiotics as well.

Slight clarification about oversight. Our company is subject to the FDA and follow FDA guidelines for food production. FSMA created a lot more work for us since everything we produce is fit for human consumption. I'm assuming you were referencing application and usage. FDA restrictions vary depending on if the probiotic is sold as a food ingredient, drug, or dietary supplement. The majority of probiotics are sold as dietary supplements which the FDA does not need to approve before consumption. If they are proven unsafe the FDA can remove these items.

If you are looking for ID on a sample or two I may be able to sneak it in on our riboprinter. 23S

That’s cool.
Double check what is is that can be sold here in the Us to Pro mote good Bacterial growth in terms of gut health.
I don’t have all the bookmarks now , it was more than just cultures.
I dumped most of that and just started fermenting and made diet changes and also settled on one well documented supplement with several strains.

Most of the pro bitoics in Reefing are a reference to the nitrifying bacteria , even though there are actually only a few. 7 I belive , from taking to dr Tim and other research.
As it’s generally misunderstood what the do and how they work , specifically keeping the colony healthy and procreating in the tank ,
Numerous products and AD schemes are designed to make one belive constant addition of them is needed.
Oddly , a product like Dr Tim’s is not markedted as pro biotic , even though it is in fact , Bactria.

Other bacterias discussed in terms of coral health are populations that some coral seem to “farm” specifically and others that seem to behave like our wild yeasts that also work as part of the natural food web.

Many reefers , IMO, confuse those when discussing Probiotics And also biological diversity. The latter is kinda cutting edge and ongoing in oceanography.

The link I had in my previous post has a lot of information on it.
"Government regulation of probiotics in the United States is complex. Depending on a probiotic product’s intended use, the FDA might regulate it as a dietary supplement, a food ingredient, or a drug.

Many probiotics are sold as dietary supplements, which do not require FDA approval before they are marketed. Dietary supplement labels may make claims about how the product affects the structure or function of the body without FDA approval, but they cannot make health claims (claims that the product reduces the risk of a disease) without the FDA’s consent. (For more information about dietary supplements, see the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health’s fact sheet Using Dietary Supplements Wisely.)"



I'm wondering if you are thinking of pre-biotics? We currently have a few cultures in animal trials and one in human trials. There is a lot of missing information about the impact of bacteria on the human body. Truly fascinating.

The term "probiotic" in the reefing community has been slightly misused. I guess the application would be okay if you consider the reef tank as a "host". Likely wouldn't be accepted in the scientific community. The OP referenced the addition of a human probiotic to mysis he was feeding to his fish. My main concern would be the volume. LRS promotes 1 million cfu/g in their food. Most human probiotics are in the 5-25 billion+ cfu/g range. A billion is a thousand million. That volume would likely be significant in the reef.

The majority of bacteria are simple. They eat and multiply. It gets complicated when bacteria start to compete for resources/niches.


There could be a few reasons why a particular strain of bacteria needs to be continually reintroduced.

Manufacturers/vendors confuse the issue by labeling environmental bacteria as probiotics. With that said I can’t find a lot of saltwater items being sold as “probiotics”.

This article discusses the nomenclature issue a bit part way through; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5339234/

There is more if anyone is interested in reading it. “The use of the term “probiotic” to simply describe microorganisms that can provide benefits to the host (pro – “in favor of something” and “biotic” – biological) or their ecosystems would be a natural adaptation of this term. However, we must also consider that the most accurate meaning of the term “probiotic” is restricted and encompasses features that are needed to determine probiotic assignment.“

I picked up a live clam the other day, put it through the blade ginder and broadcast fed the tank. everyone seems to snap up the tiny bits. i presume the mother nature "probiotics" that were in the ocean water from where that clam was harvested is now in my tank.

I am enjoying a belgian double trappist ale I brewed. Lot's of probiotics in that. It's not just my fish and corals that enjoy probiotics.

I'd love for @PaulB to drop in and share his experience introducing gut bacteria in to his tanks for 40+ years

Ha yes! He also collects mud and live food for his tank. Our closed loop systems can likely generate severe selective forces on bacteria populations. Clearly it’s not a major issue considering that there are thousands of successful reefs. While anecdotal, @PaulB ’s success is great to see, and does make me wonder what the exact mechanism is (live food vs bacteria, etc).

 

[JonB]

The majority of probiotics are sold as dietary supplements which the FDA does not need to approve before consumption.

Absolutely. This can definitely be a problem in my opinion.

The term "probiotic" in the reefing community has been slightly misused. I guess the application would be okay if you consider the reef tank as a "host". Likely wouldn't be accepted in the scientific community.

+1. I think it would be fair to say that a probiotic could exist in a food you feed to the fish if they were FOR the fish but using the work "probiotic" for the tank as an environment is not accurate. I guess some could argue that a reef tank is somewhat similar to an organism. There is the stage of initial bacterial colonization/population, fluctuations in that original population, and then (hopefully) stability achieved after several year with the ongoing assumption that there will be introductions of new bacteria along the way that may or may not establish themselves. But, I agree, it is not accurate to use the term. There is no complex interplay with an immune system which is partially how probiotics help us when we take them.

The most widely accepted official definition of probiotic that I saw in literature from my research is from the WHO. They define it "live microorganisms which when administered in adequate amounts confer a health benefit on the host” (FAO/WHO, 2001).



Source
FAO/WHO. 2001. WHO expert consultation on evaluation of health and nutritional properties of probiotics in food including powder milk with live lactic acid bacteria. Córdoba, Argentina. October: 1-4.

 

[zed102]

Thanks for joining this discussion. Your information is very helpful and timely. The bacterial bloom has been cleared for a few weeks now and I am about to resume feeding with the probiotics. I will likely start again next weekend.

 

[sundog101]

Side question- Why does probiotics mostly refer to anaerobic bacteria?

 

[JonB]

Side question- Why does probiotics mostly refer to anaerobic bacteria?

In reference to human consumption or aquariums? For humans, our gut has relatively low oxygen levels therefore facultative anaerobes (can live with oxygen and without) and strict anaerobes (along with some bacteria that are aerobic) can be used.

Also, some of the first examples of use of probiotics in humans are based on the practice of fermentation, which is an anaerobic process.

 

[cpschult]

Side question- Why does probiotics mostly refer to anaerobic bacteria?

For human consumption? Survival. There are a few facultative anaerobic bacteria that go into probiotics and a few aerobic bacteria but the majority are anaerobic due to the lack of oxygen in your gut. . One of the most versatile is L. plantarum. It’s a facultative heterofermentative lactic acid bacteria that is rediculously useful.

 

[cpschult]

Thanks for joining this discussion. Your information is very helpful and timely. The bacterial bloom has been cleared for a few weeks now and I am about to resume feeding with the probiotics. I will likely start again next weekend.

I would be careful. The dilution LRS and other companies use must be significant. How much are you planning to add to your mysis?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thanks for joining this discussion. Your information is very helpful and timely. The bacterial bloom has been cleared for a few weeks now and I am about to resume feeding with the probiotics. I will likely start again next weekend.

I would be careful. The dilution LRS and other companies use must be significant. How much are you planning to add to your mysis?

What type of bacterial bloom do we assume this is ?
And what probiotic do we belive is being used?
We’re assuming they are connected?

 

[cpschult]

I have been reading quite a bit about the use of probiotics in aquaculture facilities. There are many studies which show an improvement in growth rate, overall health, etc... Based on the success of these studies I decided to give them a try to see if I could notice an improvement in my fish. I quarantine all my fish and treat them to eliminate potential disease. The use of probiotics is intended to restore the bacteria in their gut. Unfortunately, the studies I have read are evaluating a wide range of bacteria’s and are not conclusive on which is best. Therefore, my plan is to use some of the more common ones studied and look for improvements in my fishes health.

This weekend I started adding a supliment intended for human consumption to frozen mysis containing L.Reuteri, L.Rhamnosis, L.Acidopholus, and Fos. I am feeding with this mixture every other day. If anyone is/has done this I would love to hear what has been working for you.

What type of bacterial bloom do we assume this is ?
And what probiotic do we belive is being used?
We’re assuming they are connected?

Something already in his tank. He states his probiotic contained LRE, LR, LA with a FOS carrier. None of those three will flourish in a marine environment. FOS is short for fructooligosaccharides. FOS is a known pre-biotic that can stimulate bacteria growth and fermentation. It's short/medium chain sugar that most bacteria can use. It's not selective.

Yes, the probiotic and bacterial bloom are connected. What happens when you overdose vinegar or vodka? The same thing that happens if you add a bunch of sugar to your tank. Bacteria that can use it multiply. The probiotic itself may cause a small imbalance when added to the tank. I'm much more concerned about the volume of carrier than the actual probiotic bacteria themselves.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Something already in his tank. He states his probiotic contained LRE, LR, LA with a FOS carrier. None of those three will flourish in a marine environment. FOS is short for fructooligosaccharides. FOS is a known pre-biotic that can stimulate bacteria growth and fermentation. It's short/medium chain sugar that most bacteria can use. It's not selective.

Yes, the probiotic and bacterial bloom are connected. What happens when you overdose vinegar or vodka? The same thing that happens if you add a bunch of sugar to your tank. Bacteria that can use it multiply. The probiotic itself may cause a small imbalance when added to the tank. I'm much more concerned about the volume of carrier than the actual probiotic bacteria themselves.

So it’s the organic carbon source blooming the nitrifying bacteria in the water colum and not the probiotic directly then. If I’m following you.
The pro biotic (actual bacteria )in the food would be anerobic and not bloom in the wc. Correct?

 

[cpschult]

Yeah that would be my best guess. Most of those cultures are around 500B cfu/g lypholized for us. If he’s using a 5B-20B cfu/g product that’s a lot of dilutant.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yeah that would be my best guess. Most of those cultures are around 500B cfu/g lypholized for us. If he’s using a 5B-20B cfu/g product that’s a lot of dilutant.

Yea , it’s a pretty common malady.
Particularly in Qt.

I for one would love a fact based article explaining the differences between the two types probiotics and their components that we commonly use.

 

[cpschult]

Any particular list of products you’d be interested in? There is a pretty big difference between environmental “probiotics” and actual probiotics like those used in LRS. Are you talking about the difference in those or the differences between human probiotics and marine?

I’ve got an API starting bacteria I may ask our lab to isolate and identify.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Any particular list of products you’d be interested in? There is a pretty big difference between environmental “probiotics” and actual probiotics like those used in LRS. Are you talking about the difference in those or the differences between human probiotics and marine?

I’ve got an API starting bacteria I may ask our lab to isolate and identify.

I personally do realize and understand the difference.
I think a general understanding of both would be helpfully to most, as illustrated in this thread , most are unaware of the difference.
And yes , Reef related naturally , however I’ll assume paralles will have to be drawn for illustration.
It’s actually awareness of the other things involved such as the addition of the organic carbon sources that many may find quite helpful.

Fwiw, I don’t or rather can’t feed LRS daily. I get cyano.

 

[JonB]

So it’s the organic carbon source blooming the nitrifying bacteria in the water colum and not the probiotic directly then. If I’m following you.
The pro biotic (actual bacteria )in the food would be anerobic and not bloom in the wc. Correct?

I agree with cpschult that this is most likely correct. To be honest (and I think I said this somewhere else...), I do not think we are sure of how many viable bacteria there are in the aquarium "probiotics" we use. The fact that many of them are already in solution leads me to believe that they would have a very limited shelf life. Even shipping them in warm weather could impact the CFUs within.

I know that this paper might be specialized and does not match exactly what we are talking about, but I feel it gives a good background of probiotics, a little about their history, and how we use them as a prophylactic in neonates (and their usefulness is open for debate) and some of the problems of using them (and I feel that this section might be the most applicable to this discussion). I know this is not about aquariums but I split the paper up by bacterial strain and species so it might be interesting to some. Or not. The cover page is removed because of my contact info on it but the title of the paper is "A review of human gut microbial colonization and the prophylactic implementation of probiotics in the prevention of neonatal necrotizing enterocolitis."