Aquarium and electrical safety

[RobertK]

@BeanAnimal I'm confused about something. In Miami's thread about his electrical problems a few months ago this was a part of the conversation:

I would much rather have my four GFCI receptacles on my 20 amp circuit than have one GFCI breaker.

Agreed. Notice the absence of such breakers in my panel.

Here I think we are being advised to install GFCI or AFCI/GFCI breakers. What are the pros and cons of GFCI receptacles vs. GFCI or AFCI/GFCI breakers? Is there any reason to have both on the same circuit? If I already have GFCI receptacles should I install AFCI breakers or AFCI/GFCI breakers?

Sorry if this has already been answered but electrical is not my strength and this is all very confusing to me. But I want to understand this as I am currently embarking on a new tank and have the opportunity to re-do the wiring in my house if needed (and yes I will be working with a licensed electrician!).

Thank you!

 

[jonelder68]

Both would be fine. The plus of multiple GFCI outlets is on how they work. Usually the first outlet on the circuit is a GFCI while the rest are standard. When the GFCI triggers it disables all outlets further down from it.

With multiple say 4 outlets. If the third outlet trips it will only disable outlets 3 & 4 while 1 & 2 are still operational. Did I explain that so it’s understandable?

 

[UncommonSense]

Both would be fine. The plus of multiple GFCI outlets is on how they work. Usually the first outlet on the circuit is a GFCI while the rest are standard. When the GFCI triggers it disables all outlets further down from it.

With multiple say 4 outlets. If the third outlet trips it will only disable outlets 3 & 4 while 1 & 2 are still operational. Did I explain that so it’s understandable?

I think the referred installation had every outlet as a GFCI, and every outlet wired in parallel, not series!

— that is, pigtails to each outlet, not wiring through each outlet!

— this puts you in a scenario where every GFCI outlet on one circuit can trip independently without disabling any subsequent outlet(s)!

 

[KStatefan]

@BeanAnimal I'm confused about something. In Miami's thread about his electrical problems a few months ago this was a part of the conversation:




Here I think we are being advised to install GFCI or AFCI/GFCI breakers. What are the pros and cons of GFCI receptacles vs. GFCI or AFCI/GFCI breakers? Is there any reason to have both on the same circuit? If I already have GFCI receptacles should I install AFCI breakers or AFCI/GFCI breakers?

Sorry if this has already been answered but electrical is not my strength and this is all very confusing to me. But I want to understand this as I am currently embarking on a new tank and have the opportunity to re-do the wiring in my house if needed (and yes I will be working with a licensed electrician!).

Thank you!

Both GFCIs on the same circuit does nothing but create confusion either place or both could trip on fault.

I like separate GFCIs to reduce single point of failure. If I have a GFCI breaker and something creates a fault real or nuisance every thing on that circuit goes dead. If I have two or more GFCI outlets on the same circuit only the things on that outlet or down stream from it go out.

Look at Beananimals picture from earlier in this thread. If you had a heater and a return pump in receptacle and the heater created a fault just the two things on that receptacle would go out everything on #2,#3and #3a would still be powered.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@BeanAnimal I'm confused about something. In Miami's thread about his electrical problems a few months ago this was a part of the conversation:




Here I think we are being advised to install GFCI or AFCI/GFCI breakers. What are the pros and cons of GFCI receptacles vs. GFCI or AFCI/GFCI breakers? Is there any reason to have both on the same circuit? If I already have GFCI receptacles should I install AFCI breakers or AFCI/GFCI breakers?

Sorry if this has already been answered but electrical is not my strength and this is all very confusing to me. But I want to understand this as I am currently embarking on a new tank and have the opportunity to re-do the wiring in my house if needed (and yes I will be working with a licensed electrician!).

Thank you!

The general advice is that you should be using the latest technology to protect you and your family.

In theory the GFCI and GFCI receptacle both accomplish the same task. For our purposes (and in context to my quoted post) I prefer a single branch circuit (one breaker) with multiple parallel GFCI receptacles installed. This allows critical equipment to be on its own GFCI, meaning a fault or nuisance trips on that device does not affect other devices. The GFCI breaker creates a single point of failure. If device faults or there is a nuisance trip. then everything on the circuit gets de-energized. Also a few folks explained it very well in the posts above.

There is a post above with far more detail regarding AFCI and GFCI and some thoughts on ways to add redundancy.

The best thing to do is consult your electrician and explain to them what you are trying to do.

 

[Jarob]

Thoughts on an AFCI/GFCI dual function outlets? I just ordered one and will go this route for the majority

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thoughts on an AFCI/GFCI dual function outlets? I just ordered one and will go this route for the majority

They provide an enhanced level of safety. You may find that the AFCI portion nuisance trips with some equipment. If it does, then dropping back and using a GFCI may be an option. I would consult a licensed electrician regarding code requirements.

 

[RobertK]

Both would be fine. The plus of multiple GFCI outlets is on how they work. Usually the first outlet on the circuit is a GFCI while the rest are standard. When the GFCI triggers it disables all outlets further down from it.

With multiple say 4 outlets. If the third outlet trips it will only disable outlets 3 & 4 while 1 & 2 are still operational. Did I explain that so it’s understandable?

Both on the same circuit does nothing but create confusion either place or both could trip on fault.

I like separate GFCIs to reduce single point of failure. If I have a GFCI breaker and something creates a fault real or nuisance every thing on that circuit goes dead. If I have two or more GFCI outlets on the same circuit only the things on that outlet or down stream from it go out.

Look at Beananimals picture from earlier in this thread. If you had a heater and a return pump in receptacle and the heater created a fault just the two things on that receptacle would go out everything on #2,#3and #3a would still be powered.

Thank you, that makes sense!

Here is what I have now, this was installed 20 years ago. I would like to improve upon it now that my old tank has been removed and the new tank has not been installed yet.

Two GFCI outlets on a single 20 amp circuit. The breaker for these outlets is at the very bottom right, below the two bridged 30A breakers:

From the discussion in this thread I think I should replace those receptacles with new ones as these are 20 years old and could have "expired". Ideally I would also like to have a second 20 amp circuit installed with another pair of GFCI outlets, but I'm not sure if my panel is maxed out already.

 

[RobertK]

The general advice is that you should be using the latest technology to protect you and your family.

In theory the GFCI and GFCI receptacle both accomplish the same task. For our purposes (and in context to my quoted post) I prefer a single branch circuit (one breaker) with multiple parallel GFCI receptacles installed. This allows critical equipment to be on its own GFCI, meaning a fault or nuisance trips on that device does not affect other devices. The GFCI breaker creates a single point of failure. If device faults or there is a nuisance trip. then everything on the circuit gets de-energized. Also a few folks explained it very well in the posts above.

There is a post above with far more detail regarding AFCI and GFCI and some thoughts on ways to add redundancy.

The best thing to do is consult your electrician and explain to them what you are trying to do.

Thanks Bean! I think you posted this while I was composing my reply to the previous post.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wow -- don't see too many of those quad tandem breakers.

 

[jonelder68]

That would be amazing! I am not the least bit electrically savvy! I can change an outlet, or install a ceiling fan, but that's about as far as it goes.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...er-as-grounding-probes.1134688/#post-13962074

 

[jonelder68]

I had a cheap powerhead go bad in my Rubbermaid tank. From advice on this forum that system is on a GFCI with a ground probe. Powerhead started leaking juice and the GFCI tripped. Would it have tripped without the ground probe when I touched the water? Glad I didn’t have to find out…

Yes as soon as you touched the water a functional GFCI circuit should have tripped. The ground probe just prevented you from having to

 

[johnnycamp5]

I've been calling "stray voltage" "induced voltage" now - what I mean is a small voltage, usually less than 30 vac that is produced by the normal operation of electrical motors in the tank. That doesn't harm the fish, and I've never felt that "tingle" working around tanks that had it. A "short to ground" may not be the best term for the dangerous situation that can harm people and fish, but that stems from some failure of the equipment - a short, or electricity following salt incrustations on a power cord, etc. I wonder if current flowing to ground is even needed in some cases. When I was a kid, I was standing on a wooden chair and reached both hands into a tank that had a broken heater. The shock blew me off the chair onto my bed, and I clearly was not completing the circuit to ground....my late father, an electrical engineer told me, "just use one hand". To this date, I often "flick" the water with a finger on a suspect tank before putting my hand in (your mileage might vary).

Absolutely
Working on vacuum tube circuits would always test/check voltages with “one hand in your back pocket”
It was mostly thought to stop the current from crossing your chest (your heart)

 

[RobertK]

In an ideal situation one would install an Arc Fault equipped breaker and multiple downstream GFCIs onto the circuit. This removes the single point of failure GFCI and if the AFCI becomes a nuisance, then it can be swapped for a standard circuit breaker and AFCI/GFCI combo devices can replace the selected GFCI devices on the circuit where appropriate.

I'll see what my electrician recommends, but this sounds good to me - arc fault breakers with new GFCI receptacles (in parallel).

When you referred to "AFCI/GFCI combo devices" are you referring to combo receptacles? What is the advantage of an AFCI breaker compared to an AFCI/GFCI equipped receptacle?

 

[tritonpower]

You want a grounding probe only if you have a GFCI, and you plug the grounding probe into the GFCI outlet, or power strip which is plugged into the GFCI outlet!

Wow. So glad you mentioned that. I have a GFCI for my tank but I plugged my 2 grounding probes (sump and tank) into a non-GFCI outlet. That could have been bad. Thanks a lot!!!

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'll see what my electrician recommends, but this sounds good to me - arc fault breakers with new GFCI receptacles (in parallel).

When you referred to "AFCI/GFCI combo devices" are you referring to combo receptacles? What is the advantage of an AFCI breaker compared to an AFCI/GFCI equipped receptacle?

I don't have any experience with the new combo receptacle devices.

My personal plan would be to
try an Arc Fault breaker with downstream GFCIs -- as long as there were no listed compatibility issues.

If the arc fault breaker proved to be a problem, I would swap it for a regular breaker and try combo devices downstream where they didn't cause nuisance trips. So AFCI/GFCI combos where they worked well and GFCI where the AFCI caused nuisance trips.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Absolutely
Working on vacuum tube circuits would always test/check voltages with “one hand in your back pocket”
It was mostly thought to stop the current from crossing your chest (your heart)

Exactly - I have two big KT100 based mono block amps on the bench as we speak :)

 

[BeanAnimal]

You want a grounding probe only if you have a GFCI, and you plug the grounding probe into the GFCI outlet, or power strip which is plugged into the GFCI outlet!

For clarity here. The ground probe can be plugged into any grounded receptacle. Ideally the GFCI or power strip, but the equipment grounding conductors throughout the home are bonded.

What you don't want to do is tie it to a water pipe or some other "ground" and assume it is bonded to the ECG.

You should NEVER drive an isolated ground rod for any reason, unless you fully understand what you are doing. The conversation is beyond the scope here, other than to remind people to use the home's ground provided by the center ground pin of the receptacles.

 

[Idech]

Wow. So glad you mentioned that. I have a GFCI for my tank but I plugged my 2 grounding probes (sump and tank) into a non-GFCI outlet. That could have been bad. Thanks a lot!!!

Do we need two grounding probes, one for the tank and one for the sump? I currently only have one in the sump, plugged directly into a GFCI outlet.

 

[UncommonSense]

For clarity here. The ground probe can be plugged into any grounded receptacle. Ideally the GFCI or power strip, but the equipment grounding conductors throughout the home are bonded.

Well said!

I oversimplified, as I’ve seen a shocking number of ungrounded, or poorly grounded branch circuits and receptacles in the relatively small amount of electrical work I’ve done/observed!

— in fact, a electrician buddy recently sent me a photo of phone cable being used to supply a kitchen counter outlet…