Aquarium and electrical safety

[Jarob]

Back to grounding probes, my system is now on GFCI/AFCI but I have no open GFCI outlets. Can a grounding probe be plugged into the Apex EB8 that is plugged into the GFCI?

My vortechs and DC return pump are the only things not on a GFCI and a seperate breaker all together in case of an accidental trip.

 

[jonelder68]

Back to grounding probes, my system is now on GFCI/AFCI but I have no open GFCI outlets. Can a grounding probe be plugged into the Apex EB8 that is plugged into the GFCI?

My vortechs and DC return pump are the only things not on a GFCI and a seperate breaker all together in case of an accidental trip.

Would require testing the ground remains with outlet commanded off etc. Would be less than ideal in many ways. I would just get a multi outlet small extension or one of these. Add ground probe to one and energy bar cord to the other.

Or best option add another gang outlet on the side of the existing outlet. If not electrical savy call an electrician. Shouldn’t be that expensive.

 

[BlueTide]

Normally, battery voltage won't hurt you. You can touch both terminals on a 12 volt battery in your car, and you won't get a shock (contrary to TV movies where they torture someone by shocking them with a car battery, even though it could put out potentially 400 amps)

But a "battery backup" will convert that battery voltage to 110 volts AC just like the outlet in your wall, and it can still kill you.

Any recommendations for keeping battery backups safe?

Btw nice seeing you here...thought you only lived on MR lol

 

[Paul B]

Any recommendations for keeping battery backups safe?

I actually never thought about it.

 

[jonelder68]

Would adding a GFCI in line plug installed in the battery output not suffice? Or creating a whip from a single gang GFCI outlet into the battery output? I’m wondering how GFCI would work on a battery pack and if it would just be constant nuisance trips? I just ordered a battery pack for my return pump “Tis the season” for electrical outages.

@Paul B and @BeanAnimal thoughts? I’ve tried reading up on battery packs but they don’t give out much electrical info. Might just require testing it?

 

[Paul B]

I have a lot of experience on low voltage systems and GFIs and none of it turned out well. I did a huge lobby in Manhattan on a low voltage lighting system in a pond and using a GFI, all the heavy wires melted even though we had the manufacturer come to show us how to wire it.

I realize you are using a battery backup which is different, but I am not sure of the technology to make battery backups safe, and I don't want to guess. (I only guess about fish)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Would adding a GFCI in line plug installed in the battery output not suffice? Or creating a whip from a single gang GFCI outlet into the battery output? I’m wondering how GFCI would work on a battery pack and if it would just be constant nuisance trips? I just ordered a battery pack for my return pump “Tis the season” for electrical outages.

@Paul B and @BeanAnimal thoughts? I’ve tried reading up on battery packs but they don’t give out much electrical info. Might just require testing it?

If the battery backup drives devices at 110 V, I’d put a properly grounded GFCI between the device and the electric source (the inverter of the battery backup). Might there be some scenario where this does not work? I can’t think of one, but maybe. But there is no downside to doing so. Have an electrician do it if you are concerned.

My current battery backup only directly drives a 12v product (Tunze Powerheads) and uses no inverter, but on my old tank that is how I ran it. I did not get false trips.

 

[Euphylliaphyle]

If the battery backup drives devices at 110 V, I’d put a properly grounded GFCI between the device and the electric source (the inverter of the battery backup). Might there be some scenario where this does not work? I can’t think of one, but maybe. But there is no downside to doing so. Have an electrician do it if you are concerned.

My current battery backup only directly drives a 12v product (Tunze Powerheads) and uses no inverter, but on my old tank that is how I ran it. I did not get false trips.

This makes sense to me. At least the equipment Downstream of the GFCI should be protected. Extreme caution should be exercised though, as the UPS itself could potentially be faulty (and dangerous,) I think? Not sure if the partially false sense of security would be better than knowing that you are unprotected while the UPS is engaged. Can one of our Subject Matter Experts weigh in, please?

 

[jonelder68]

I just ordered my oupes exodus 1500 power supply thanks to the help of @VintageReefer. He’s brought up a good way of testing if it’s a floating or pass through inverter. I’ll do some testing when it shows up and post here what I come up with.

 

[Paul B]

Have an electrician do it if you are concerned.

I am an electrician

The problem is the grounding. Some battery backups have a ground that does not connect to the house ground, it is isolated, so the GFI may not work correctly.

If the GFI is on the line side of the battery backup, it won't work because of the electronics in the AC converter in the back up. And depending on how the ground is configured in the back up, it may have to be connected differently than a normal 110 volt system. I just don't know although I could probably find out.

I'm sure the manufacturer of the unit could tell you.

 

[jonelder68]

I am an electrician

The problem is the grounding. Some battery backups have a ground that does not connect to the house ground, it is isolated, so the GFI may not work correctly.

If the GFI is on the line side of the battery backup, it won't work because of the electronics in the AC converter in the back up. And depending on how the ground is configured in the back up, it may have to be connected differently than a normal 110 volt system. I just don't know although I could probably find out.

I'm sure the manufacturer of the unit could tell you.

This is what I’m waiting on the battery to figure out

 

[Reefering1]

The schematic of the unit, in question, will show how the ground is configured...

 

[Freenow54]

I have a lot of experience on low voltage systems and GFIs and none of it turned out well. I did a huge lobby in Manhattan on a low voltage lighting system in a pond and using a GFI, all the heavy wires melted even though we had the manufacturer come to show us how to wire it.

I realize you are using a battery backup which is different, but I am not sure of the technology to make battery backups safe, and I don't want to guess. (I only guess about fish)

I thought GFIs relied on " current " difference and a ground is not required ?

 

[Freenow54]

Also and I am getting this all from AI not my head a GFI may not work as you stated because of " filters " ? in the UPS. As to downstream many manufacturers advise not do do it because it in both cases cause nuisance trips due to on the load side because of the inverter wave form or current leakage. There are fire risks as well poor ventilation batteries and ARC flashes internally as example's given

 

[Freenow54]

These are questions to Paul not stating this as any sort of statement of knowledge

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am an electrician

The problem is the grounding. Some battery backups have a ground that does not connect to the house ground, it is isolated, so the GFI may not work correctly.

If the GFI is on the line side of the battery backup, it won't work because of the electronics in the AC converter in the back up. And depending on how the ground is configured in the back up, it may have to be connected differently than a normal 110 volt system. I just don't know although I could probably find out.

I'm sure the manufacturer of the unit could tell you.

Yes, the GFI in my suggestion goes on the downstream side of the battery backup system.

I agree there may be grounding complexities, and I grounded mine independently of the battery system (to the house ground on an actual grounded outlet) since my battery backup system I used in the past (a simple inverter) had no ground at all. That will work, and is why I said it needs to be properly grounded.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Also and I am getting this all from AI not my head a GFI may not work as you stated because of " filters " ? in the UPS. As to downstream many manufacturers advise not do do it because it in both cases cause nuisance trips due to on the load side because of the inverter wave form or current leakage. There are fire risks as well poor ventilation batteries and ARC flashes internally as example's given

Just an FYI, I did not get any nuisance trips.

As we have all learned from the Miami situation, electricity is serious business. I recommend doing anything you can to increase safety, with all GFCI outlets, ground probes, and as many low voltage devices as one can given the system needs. Heaters may be the only thing not easily done at low voltage that needs to be in the water. A review by an in person licensed electrician is a good idea, assuming they understand seawater issues.

Battery backups do seem like an area ripe for serious problems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I too would like to hear Bean's opinion on how to deal with battery backup safety.

@BeanAnimal

 

[NanoSteam]

Ok, plan check for upcoming build... I replaced the outlet with a GFCI, went with this one because it has an audible alarm if it ever trips plus I have my home alarm on the same circuit so if there was power loss I get a notification on my phone.

I checked my breakers and they're all AFCI so GFCI outlet plus AFCI breaker, this should work correct? All I'll have to do is plug a grounding probe directly to this GFCI outlet now.

Thank you,

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ok, plan check for upcoming build... I replaced the outlet with a GFCI, went with this one because it has an audible alarm if it ever trips plus I have my home alarm on the same circuit so if there was power loss I get a notification on my phone.

I checked my breakers and they're all AFCI so GFCI outlet plus AFCI breaker, this should work correct? All I'll have to do is plug a grounding probe directly to this GFCI outlet now.

Thank you,

It should work if the breakers are AFCI only and not combo.

Note: That sticker is fine there, but it is a good idea to put them on any downstream receptacles connected to the load side of the GFCI.