Are Alk spikes a real issue?

[Mystikal]

Another point; typically with Alk spikes, its a sudden jump to "X" then a sudden downward drop. This may effect the specimen substantially. Whereas, whenever we place new frag or coral into our tanks, theoretically our tanks will be at a stable ALK level for a period of time...

 

[hart24601]

What I find interesting is that myself and others have kept pico reefs with various SPS including acros, some of these are years old. Mostly there is a large weekly waterchange between 50 and 100% and no other dosing. There is a huge alk change at that time, however as stated some of these sps picos have been going for years so under some conditions it's not a big deal however why that is I don't know.

 

[mckinney0171]

What I find interesting is that myself and others have kept pico reefs with various SPS including acros, some of these are years old. Mostly there is a large weekly waterchange between 50 and 100% and no other dosing. There is a huge alk change at that time, however as stated some of these sps picos have been going for years so under some conditions it's not a big deal however why that is I don't know.

This.

 

[29bonsaireef]

What I find interesting is that myself and others have kept pico reefs with various SPS including acros, some of these are years old. Mostly there is a large weekly waterchange between 50 and 100% and no other dosing. There is a huge alk change at that time, however as stated some of these sps picos have been going for years so under some conditions it's not a big deal however why that is I don't know.

^^You speak my words. Set up a nano specifically to better understand what changes cause issues in a tank with SPS. Never noticed alk being a direct issue IME.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

IME, Alk swings or spikes don't harm healthy SPS. I maintained a couple thousand gallon SPS frag holding system that was plumbed into a 300 gallon display with a ton of growth. The owner of the LFS did not want to invest in a Cal Rx for this system or any other monitors so I was testing the KH daily and dosing mass quantities of 2 part daily. There was easily a 2-4 KH swing in that system and the growth and coloration of the corals was excellent. Not to mention that the dozens of SPS frags that went into that system on a weekly basis were never acclimated at all, they went straight in.

 

[29bonsaireef]

When you think about corals as a living animal in our tanks..similar in ways to that of the living fish or inverts. Does that Alk change directly cause harm to fish or inverts? The bacteria/Zoox are living organisms, and I do not think they are directly affected by Alk, Cal, or Mag they just need them to continue growth in the coral as a whole. When you look into ammonia levels, PH, No3, P04 etc.. things that do have a direct impact on living organisms.. I think this is where the biggest issues come into play and when Alk is changing the levels in all of those may very well be changing as well due to more/less intake/usage/ etc.. I think that is where impacts come from, not Alk alone. BTW this is completely a personal theory, not intended as advice or to help with someones issues.

 

[KenO]

I’ve seen issues when my ALK went from 7.8 to 9.9 overnight with a very low NO3 1-2ppm. Lost a bunch of acros and some anemones. Which then compounded the issue with an ammonia spike.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I have recently been wondering this exact same thing. Over the last 5 or so years of focusing solely on SPS and acros I always believed that Alk swings were the main cause of any problems that popped up. So... last year I ordered an Alkatronic to see if I could fix any potential issues with Alk swings.

Fast forward to today (7 months of Alk monitoring), I can firmly say that Alk swings were never the sole cause of issues for me, even though I thought they were. Alk is rock solid in my system, only like .2 or .3 over the course of a week. And I have not changed anything with my dosing regimen, which is 2 part on auto dosers.

Since adding the Alk monitor, I learning that I need to look elsewhere for what would cause issues with my SPS.
I've since added auto water changes to my system. The reason I did this was to simply up the frequency that water was being changed, and take myself out of the equation. Not that I was bad with husbandry, just not as perfect as I wanted to be. I also could not find any test that would lead me to a potential cause of issues.

I know this doesn't really answer the question, but it does (for me at least) confirm that Alk is often blamed when something else is at play. What will be interesting is if I can draw a correlation between any future SPS issues, and an Alk swing (if there is one or not).

And BTW, my corals have been growing and happy since the AWC addition. (No recent issues, fingers crossed).

TMB

I also added an Alkatronic about 6 months ago. Suddenly I can keep SPS successfully, whereas I previously struggled and would only have limited periods of success. What I attribute the change to is that Alkatronic not only controls the alkalinity, but more importantly, controls me, or at least my tendency to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. By being able to see the effects of dosing changes easier, I find myself being able to nudge the parameters into line in a more gradual fashion rather than what would have been whiplashing them all over the place. I still had a few of those huge moves, but having feedback allowed me to intervene quicker and moderate the dosing levels to prevent harmful spikes. Up to this point, the Alkatronic has not even had to dose any alkalinity, just modulating the dosing schedule by disabling the doser and giving me easy to understand feedback was all that was required. I almost never adjust my dosing level anymore, and it still seems hard to believe that I was so messing up before. Yet that was clearly the case.

Dennis

 

[TMB]

I also added an Alkatronic about 6 months ago. Suddenly I can keep SPS successfully, whereas I previously struggled and would only have limited periods of success. What I attribute the change to is that Alkatronic not only controls the alkalinity, but more importantly, controls me, or at least my tendency to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. By being able to see the effects of dosing changes easier, I find myself being able to nudge the parameters into line in a more gradual fashion rather than what would have been whiplashing them all over the place. I still had a few of those huge moves, but having feedback allowed me to intervene quicker and moderate the dosing levels to prevent harmful spikes. Up to this point, the Alkatronic has not even had to dose any alkalinity, just modulating the dosing schedule by disabling the doser and giving me easy to understand feedback was all that was required. I almost never adjust my dosing level anymore, and it still seems hard to believe that I was so messing up before. Yet that was clearly the case.

Dennis

Dennis, I completely agree. Alk monitoring makes it really easy to dial in dossers because of the instant and continuous feedback. It has also given me better insight into whats going on, and greater confidence in any other decision I make, because of Alk stability not being in question.

 

[Mattrg02]

I’ve never woken up to rtn after OD alkalinity buffer. My deaths were slow and turned out to be from insufficient lighting. Now that I have plenty of lighting, my frags are overgrown their bases and need more permanent places on the rocks.

 

[jda]

People seem pretty split on "healthy corals are not affected" and "it is for-sure an issue." I do think that pH also has a role to play here and something like quick changes with kalk (I hope not), baking soda, etc. is not the same as dialing up a CaRx or changing water with higher/lower parameters where the pH might not move. I also agree with therman that a lot of people might have just choose corals that are more hardy - this is a good idea for most - but I can tell you that my drop down to 4.X included PM, efflos, deepwaters, etc. that are more sensitive. Devils and details and stuff, right?

I have long had a theory that tanks with less than perfect actual nutrients (sugars from the zoox via light... not N and P which are building blocks and not really nutrients), need more stable and perfect tanks to thrive since they do not get fed as well. I wonder if quality and quantity of lighting to feed the zoox and keep the corals well fed has an overlay with this.

I also wonder if some of this is just sometimes the transition period from a young tank to a mature tank. Sure, you make a change, but it was just the time that healed all wounds and not so much the change. This could overlay some too.

Most of the people that I know with awesome tanks keep mostly acropora. They are not on-the-money with their parameters, but they do meet the two criterion that I listed above with the best possible fuel to feed the coral and their tanks are years and years old. They also keep the building blocks low, but detectable. Their tanks thrive.

I have no answers, just questions...

 

[Mattrg02]

People seem pretty split on "healthy corals are not affected" and "it is for-sure an issue." I do think that pH also has a role to play here and something like quick changes with kalk (I hope not), baking soda, etc. is not the same as dialing up a CaRx or changing water with higher/lower parameters where the pH might not move. I also agree with therman that a lot of people might have just choose corals that are more hardy - this is a good idea for most - but I can tell you that my drop down to 4.X included PM, efflos, deepwaters, etc. that are more sensitive. Devils and details and stuff, right?

I have long had a theory that tanks with less than perfect actual nutrients (sugars from the zoox via light... not N and P which are building blocks and not really nutrients), need more stable and perfect tanks to thrive since they do not get fed as well. I wonder if quality and quantity of lighting to feed the zoox and keep the corals well fed has an overlay with this.

I also wonder if some of this is just sometimes the transition period from a young tank to a mature tank. Sure, you make a change, but it was just the time that healed all wounds and not so much the change. This could overlay some too.

Most of the people that I know with awesome tanks keep mostly acropora. They are not on-the-money with their parameters, but they do meet the two criterion that I listed above with the best possible fuel to feed the coral and their tanks are years and years old. They also keep the building blocks low, but detectable. Their tanks thrive.

I have no answers, just questions...

N and P probably have a lot to do with this. I do keep both of them up via feeding food rather than dosing.

I believe the way this works is that alkalinity gets used in the skeleton building process and nutrients are needed to cover this skeleton with tissue. If they aren’t in perfect balance, skeleton grows exposed and rtn can set in from infection.

Or something like that :)

Seems to me you have to keep nutrients high or keep alkalinity super stable.

 

[jda]

You are right and wrong. N and P are not nutrients... they are building blocks. True nutrients mostly come from sugars (carbon) - the corals only get these from the zoox and if they can catch some usable food high in carbon (rare in our tanks for some corals like acropora, but very common for NPS or LPS corals) - light feeds the zoox, but they need building blocks to reproduce too. You do not need a ton of building blocks, but you do need some - too many of either can inhibit calcification and stop photosynthesis if they get high enough.

Once all of this is understood, then you have to understand what happens when building blocks are low and true nutrient levels and elements (carbonate, calcium, strontium, mag, etc.) are high. Low building block levels increase calcification if carbonate and calcium is in good supply. Carbonate in the ocean is low and almost a limiting factor for calcifying too fast. If you really lower the building blocks too far in an aquarium, then the skeleton will grow faster than the tissue can grow and then you get burnt tips. However, even if you have a lot of N and P, you still need real energy from the sugars in the zoox to make new tissue... so light matters too. This is only really common in cases where people are using GFO, Organic Carbon, etc. since most natural methods will take the building blocks low, but not too low. Burnt tips is not as common as it was with fewer people carbon dosing than they were five years ago. Brunt tips was not common at all before the introduction of GFO and widespread use of carbon dosing... and people kept their carbonate at 10-12 dKh all the time.

Think of it this way... you need building blocks to grow, but not to keep what you have (sustained living)... if limited with N and P, then growth slows and colors fade with decreased zoox, but no death. If limited by true nutrient (sugars from the zoox), then stuff can die. People blame building blocks for a lot of things because they think of them as providing everyday energy and they do not.

Also keep in mind that a lot of organisms can get nitrogen from trace levels of ammonia.

IMO, N and P play a role, in a "enough, but not too much" kind of way, but not nearly as much as true nutrients from the sugars from the zoox. I find it amazing that people fret and fuss all the time about N and P while not focusing enough on light.

...so if a coral is starved for true nutrients and also building blocks, then it can suffer. Having too high of alk for thriving corals can be bad since they can literally outgrow their body. ...so it all kinda is connected... my apologies if this is too far of a semi-tangent on alk.

 

[jda]

...or like this... very low building block tanks need low carbonate level to be growth limiting. With high carbonate levels, then you need higher building blocks to inhibit calcification. In either case, low carbonate levels work fine.

 

[markalot]

Older thread bump, but it's worth it, great read from some experienced Acro keepers above.

I can't add anything. As my tank has aged bad things stopped happening, including Alk changes. I've bottomed out in the upper 5's a few times and have raised it quickly to 6.5 without issue, but I have to wonder if I'm just getting lucky. I don't see any issue, but if I did this twice close together would I have issues? It seems to me running low Alk has been the secret to my success after years of ups and downs. Acros seem to ignore Alk changes below 7 and can still look good when Alk falls dangerously low. I stupidly let my Calcium fall below 300 via a doser error and lost a beautiful lemonade and 3/4 of a Lokani. Quickly dumping a gallon of calcium in the tank over 3 days stopped the recession and everything recovered.

I do feel like those running higher Alk have a whole host of additional issues to worry about. Running very low nutrients in higher alk might look fine but any Alk swing could be a killer because the Acros aren't as healthy as they would be at more natural Alk levels. This is always my number one comment on those getting into SPS and also running higher Alk. You have to be more careful than those of us running low Alk.

So I guess my conclusion (guess) to the severity of Alk spikes is that it depends on what level the tank normally runs at. ??

 

[smartwater101]

I have issues with this from time to time because I run my pH at 8.45 - 8.55 with Alk ~9.5 - 9.8

When I do a water change the pH drops so the Alk starts shooting up to 10.5 - 11! And I can't dose to keep the pH in line so the problem just exacerbates. I stopped using Red Sea Coal Pro and went back to Tropic Marine Pro so I can just mix the Alk in with the fresh batch of water, to keep things similar to what's already in the tank.

All that said, I've only seen a few SPS get upset with the sudden change. It's usually the LPS that closes up for an extended period. Overall, letting the Nitrate get away from me has cause many more issues than Alk.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

There is a big difference between a fragment that’s going through an alk change because it’s finding a new home to settle into and a whole tank going through an alk change. Each tank depends on alk being a certain way, and when it swings or spikes the whole tank will respond (even if you can’t tell) depending on the type of change and type of tank will determine what effect it has on the acropora in the tank. Fragments are durable if healthy, as are our tanks but there are times when unstable alk or spikes can hurt corals really bad.
I think large spikes and constant inconsistent fluctuations are what to watch for. A steady swing day to day won’t hurt. People dump a days worth of alk into the tank all the time and grow successful huge coral tanks that way. Fragments that were shipped are stressed when they arrive so the alk number of the new tank doesn’t matter because the coral is already stressed a bit and looking for stability. If given stability they do fine which we all know.
Anyways not many people run alk above 10 or 11 anymore so most frags aren’t really going through too much of a change. Just my thoughts on it, I have never dripped new acros, just floated for temp.

 

[watchguy123]

What fascinating observations. It seems most (or perhaps all) don’t acclimate for alk when placing new frags into one’s tank. Some don’t temperature acclimate. I would guess virtually no one measures other parameters of “frag bags” either.

It makes me think primarily two things must be true: 1). Frags can be very resilient and tolerate sudden parameter shifts. 2) healthy tanks (corals) probably can exist in a wide range of parameters
Well maybe there is a third consideration; 3) frags likely need to be happy/healthy and thriving to tolerate wide parameter shifts. Oh and fourth; 4) parameters are likely interrelated in ways that we don’t fully understand.

Of course, to confuse the issue, I don’t know a reefer who hasn’t had an occasional long term coral mysteriously croak.

Although frequent testing and careful observation are essential, what we don’t know still bites us ( causes slow growth, poor color and coral death. )

 

[NeutronMan]

What exactly is affecting the coral when alkalinity spikes? I honestly don’t see anything that can hurt the corals on a Chemical level. Is it actually a pH change?

 

[Acro Junky]

Wait I just read through this... this was a good read. Besides dipping coral you don’t have to acclimate it to the aquarium. I plan on adding SPS within the next month or so, and I never knew acclimating was not needed.