Are all acros loving led? Are coral enduring less par from led than T5/halides?

[jda]

You know that I think that both UV and IR are both important. UV for energy and color rendition and IR for energy processing. This does not surprise me.

What nm of IR are you using? I have seen evidence that 680 to 850nm all does something. I am mostly just curious.

BTW - that UV and IR are not being read by a hobby PAR meter. They are outside (mostly) of the visible range that a hobby grade meter can capture. If you are using a better meter, please let me know since I like to consider all of this in my head. 880 PAR on a LiCor with UV and IR is different to me than 880 PAR with UV and IR on an Apogee, if that makes sense.

 

[J1a]

You know that I think that both UV and IR are both important. UV for energy and color rendition and IR for energy processing. This does not surprise me.

What nm of IR are you using? I have seen evidence that 680 to 850nm all does something. I am mostly just curious.

BTW - that UV and IR are not being read by a hobby PAR meter. They are outside (mostly) of the visible range that a hobby grade meter can capture. If you are using a better meter, please let me know since I like to consider all of this in my head. 880 PAR on a LiCor with UV and IR is different to me than 880 PAR with UV and IR on an Apogee, if that makes sense.

The OR3 is fitted with 740nm IR diodes. Seems that the choice of diode has a fairly wide spread of wavelength.

Btw, this is the spectrum meter I use. OHSP-350P. It's really quite capable. The range is 350 nm - 800 nm at 1nm resolution.

And yes, the point on apogee/licor make perfect sense.

Edited : please ignore the values of Par and ppfd here. I was trying to isolate the diode output to check for the spectrum, rather than to measure the intensity.

 

[oreo54]

And yes, the point on apogee/licor make perfect sense.

LI-190R and LI-191R Quantum Sensor | Performance Characteristics

LI-190R and LI-191R Quantum Sensors performance specifications.

www.licor.com

Quantum Sensors - PAR Meters | Apogee Instruments

Apogee Instruments’ quantum sensors are the tool of choice for researchers and agricultural professionals measuring photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) and daily light integral all over the world.

www.apogeeinstruments.com

How so?

 

[wrassie86]

My thought.

Look at some current leds.
Diffuser plates, Mitras and reefi use reflectors, Orphek Amazonia.
Kessil clusters, though heavily lensed also blended better first.
Improved Orphek lenses
Pulling lenses off bb's..


Even condensation droplets on glass/plastic covers can create a mini spotlight of color.
Just another lens.

I 'm thinking those diffuser plates make all the difference while using more power, but we just went from a $150 fixture that the average new user might be using to $1500 dollar fixtures. I will agree led is evolving quickly but so is the cost and pricing many out of the hobby.

 

[J1a]

LI-190R and LI-191R Quantum Sensor | Performance Characteristics

LI-190R and LI-191R Quantum Sensors performance specifications.

www.licor.com

Quantum Sensors - PAR Meters | Apogee Instruments

Apogee Instruments’ quantum sensors are the tool of choice for researchers and agricultural professionals measuring photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) and daily light integral all over the world.

www.apogeeinstruments.com

How so?

I believe @jda mentioned licor with uv and ir. The measured ppfd will take into account of a broader spectrum. So if the measurements are the same, the "PAR" portion is actually lower.

 

[oreo54]

I believe @jda mentioned licor with uv and ir. The measured ppfd will take into account of a broader spectrum. So if the measurements are the same, the "PAR" portion is actually lower.

Li-Cor has the same bandpass cut off at 400 and 700nm..
It will not record IR or UV anymore than an Apogee (new model)

On paper the full spectrum apogee

Apogee e-par sensor:

 

[jda]

The LiCor thay I used to to borrow was like 280 to 1250 nm, or something like that.

 

[oreo54]

The LiCor thay I used to to borrow was like 280 to 1250 nm, or something like that.

AHHHH...Thanks.

 

[oreo54]

Luxeon IR, data direct from Luxeon, plotted into SPECTRA.
For comparison..
Wider than usual spectrums..Peak 738
Used in their hort series under Sunplus.

Orphek used like 840-ish nm at one point, was a head scratch-er.
Believe that was at the limit of the Emerson effect as noted by jda.

Suppose it was a common diode that was "pure" IR.

 

[wrassie86]

I know some peps here were putting diffusers on black boxes with good results before the major manufactures. kind of like back in the late 90's to early 2000's pep's on reef central were going to the hobby store and buying model airplane propellers to put on there maxi jets. shortly after you could buy kits. then there's now .

what was it panel then pucks now back to panel with diffuser, what is next puck with diffuser. then maybe we get to lazers.

 

[Nonya]

? Citation needed on that honestly, that sounds pretty extreme for a minimum to me.

I would agree.

Yes but is some months now, and they were already under led before,i just took of the t5 and put led bars instead and keeped the same par numbers.
1500-850 par really? That is very high, i'm between 400-250.

In reference to the OP question, you can't lump all SPS in a single bin. It's likely your SPS have a wide range of minimum/maximum PAR needs.

The old school "more is better" thought has been proven inaccurate, regardless of the type of light source. At some point, photosaturation is reached, which is the point in which photosynthesis occurring at the max possible rate for that coral. Any intensity beyond that is pointless, and a waste of money. Beyond that is photoinhibition, in which photosynthesis stops completely, and the photosynthetic pigments/molecules can actually be damaged.

Here's a BRS video that refers to Dana Riddle's research findings, as well as recommended PAR ranges for hobbyists. He confirms what the majority of people are aiming for with PAR. Spectrum is, of course, another factor.

 

[jda]

I type this too much, but the people in the photoinhibition camp probably read more than the reef. While most corals don't need a ton of light, it is easy to see increased growth and color by having more light... probably some health too. If people think that this is old school, then it is only because they probably have been around long enough to do it. This might be "proven inaccurate" with a PAM fluorometer, or the like, but in actual tanks it does not check out.

Again, I do think that some people need to slow their roll a bit with some LEDS and keep the output lower.

Increased growth is not always great - I can start with 1" frags and have to rip the majority of them out in three years. However, color and health are good things for everybody.

 

[wrassie86]

I think maybe a good example for this thread would be @JCOLE https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/m...-better-than-led-and-cost-less.700041/page-83 post1646

And what he found when he turned the whites on. I found they exact same thing running the vipar spectras really blue, corals looked great in till white light was up a bit some months later. I think if i was to run them again full time it would be closer to 50/50 BW
Now would it be a low par issue or spectrum issue.

 

[Nonya]

I guess you may not have read the research Dana Riddle has conducted in this area. He has every piece of test equipment there is, including a PAM fluorometer, and has been researching this subject for a couple of decades. Speaking of Dana, his research was a major element in the BRS YT video (see above) recommendation of a PAR goal of 250-450 for SPS.

Please check out his article from a couple years ago titled, Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 3 - The Myth of Corals Requiring Unlimited Amounts of Light. Note the figure showing the decrease in photosynthesis after the photosaturation point.

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 3- The Myth of Corals Requiring Unlimited Amounts of Light •Orphek

Lighting the Reef Aquarium: Part IIIThe Myth of Corals Requiring Unlimited Amounts of Light By Dana RiddleI had the pleasure of living on the Big Island of Hawaii for almost two decades

orphek.com

And if you're looking for acropora photosaturation levels, he followed up with this one:

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 4 •Orphek

Light Requirements of a Coral Genus Often Found in Reef AquariaBy Dana RiddleIn previous installments, we have discussed how to measure light intensity...

orphek.com

In general, PAR levels above 450 may be a waste of electricity, and can harm the photosynthetic mechanism.

 

[Nonya]

I think maybe a good example for this thread would be @JCOLE https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/m...-better-than-led-and-cost-less.700041/page-83 post1646

And what he found when he turned the whites on. I found they exact same thing running the vipar spectras really blue, corals looked great in till white light was up a bit some months later. I think if i was to run them again full time it would be closer to 50/50 BW
Now would it be a low par issue or spectrum issue.

 

[oreo54]

I am trying out the addition of a hint of IR in my current setup. I'm not sure if it's because of the UV or IR (from custom orphek OR3), my alk consumption is increased by 30%. Nothing else is changed in the aquarium.

The addition of the light bar increase the PAR at mid tank from 850 to 880. So it's not a huge increase.

Also, my aquarium didn't recieve meaningful IR before I added the OR3. So, perhaps IR is not the reason for PAR tolerance.

These are just anedoctal data, completely inconclusive. However, I think there are much we can experiment with LEDs

Except for the e- par meter from apogee none will pick up IR or true UV in any quantity.
IR is " technically" not a PAR wavelength.

Phytochrome B is the primary high-intensity red light photoreceptor for circadian control, and phytochrome A acts under low-intensity red light.

UV isn' t " technically" either BUT it does directly contribute to photosynthesis.

So unlike ir it actually is.

(See chart).


Example. 400nm led may be say 90 "pur" but par recorded may be only 50% of that (right side of bell curve)
Looking over the " slop" in ir diodes some "par" maybe recorded but most will not.
Pictures work better.
Doesn't include chl c. Sort of a between-er spectrum between a and b.

Point is your only 30 par may actualky be more BUT probably still low in comparison to err " background".
Note how wide the absorbance bands are.

Now there are other pigments/light sensors present though.

 

[jda]

I gave up a long time ago saying PPFD since nobody knew what it meant... but to your point, not everything that we call PAR is PAR... and neither is PUR.

As for photoinhibition, talk to Dana. I have read his stuff. He won't disagree. He just found what he found and wrote about it. There are too many corals all over the south pacific that grow out of the water with 12+ hours of 2000-2500+ PPFD (see what I did there) that are not inhibited at all. Too many hobbyists who see increased growth, color and health with more light. Quality matters here and I already made the point that most should stop at 450 for LED, but anybody who wants to give more than this from MH, T5 or the sun will see an increase in kind.

Again, I am not saying that corals need more, only that they will respond if you give it to them.

 

[Nonya]

Oreo, corals don't have Chlorophyll B, but they do have C2 in addition to A.

 

[Nonya]

I'm not taking that bait.
I'm happy with 250-450 PAR/PUR/PPFD/DLI and EIEIO (see what I just did?)
***Kamala cackle***

 

[J1a]

Except for the e- par meter from apogee none will pick up IR or true UV in any quantity.
IR is " technically" not a PAR wavelength

There are other meters capable of measuring that (perhaps not aim at reef hobbyist though). For instance, the one I have shown in my previous post can measure the UV and IR range adequately.

I appreciate you bringing up the difference between PPFD and PAR. I agree there will be plenty of confusion when we start to consider UV and IR.