Are all acros loving led? Are coral enduring less par from led than T5/halides?

jda

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does your dislike of me blind you THAT much?

One day, Mr Oreo might have elevated a few levels and truly understands how data -> information -> knowledge and also how true knowledge can only be obtained with personal critical thought from own experiences. When/if Mr Oreo is frustrated teaching Shortbread, Chessmen, Milano and Iced Sugar (my favorites), remember my name and what has happened here by knowing that even the most talented don't oft get this for quite some time. There is usually a frustration in what they don't know that often blocks this development when there should be joy in what all can be learned.

Dislike? No. On the contrary, the hard truths being delivered can be some of the most ultimate kindnesses that anybody outside of your family can ever deliver. I have no idea if you have the emotional intelligence to understand that this criticism is meant to help, or real intelligence to understand that you really don't actually know much about this stuff as you believe that you do, but I suspect that you do and/or can. The kindness is in the time to repeatedly explain this. If you do level up a few times and get this kind of skill, then my efforts to push forward the hard truths that Mike B, Matt V, Coach Grossman and a few others kindly gave to me, but I was too dumb to see at the time. If you do get too this level, then you will understand that you don't do this for thanks or recognition, but because somebody did it for you... Dislike would look more like hitting the ignore button or never replying.

In this particular example, there are 1). words and experience from a guy that YOU KNOW has been right about a few things, 2). a relatively competent instrument and 3). photographic evidence. Not to go all Ted Lasso/Walt Whitman, but instead of being curious and perhaps asking another reading or two for which to think about this differently or more comprehensively, the default was right back to links, choose to label as a spot measurement and ask for an average. I think think that you can be better than this.

...back down a few levels, I took another measurement 12:45 that was 2922, or 2213 PAR after immersion factor (I have a photo if you do not believe me, but you should). Dennis took his in post #77 - 1863 with the factor applied. You can average or do whatever you want with these at the high-data or low-information level. However, it is also OK to level back up and just see that I probably know (the actual meaning with experience) something here and that most of the corals that we get our hands on in this hobby are pretty close to 2000-2500 PAR for large chunks of the day.

Your instinct might be to just bombard me with links and other things like you always do. Instead, perhaps I can suggest that you level up a bit and ask me how I might know (as in actually know) some of these things. If you did that, I would answer that I actually took my PAR meter on vacation with me, but also have reached out to coral collectors in the south pacific and a friend that I trade corals with in Florida and they have sent me readings from their meters. As you know, I pay attention to some details, I got the meter types and applied the correction factors when necessary. While there is no substitute for actual experience, these approaches are open to you as well... which might tell you quite a bit more than just searching, reading and linking. There have been all kinds of collectors, mariculturists, biologists and others at MACNA over the years with a penchant for these things who are happy to help. This might seem like a lot of work, but if you do it, the work is not done with just getting them to reply... it is just data and you have to turn it into information... and you might be able to turn it into knowledge one day.
 

oreo54

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I interpreted the data from experts all over the world and presented it for review.. No more no less.

That fact that nature is not STATIC is irrefutable.
As to your findings on growth what ever I was totally silent wasn't I?
Dang your hubris is astounding..


BTW and since you forgot it was ME that told you needed to apply the corrections to your "water " par meter when used in air.
When you gave those goofy IMPOSSIBLE readings.

I can find it ..
 

jda

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You can always read it again if you ever start to get it... Not everybody does, and that is OK. I remember how immature I was when I thought that people who knew more than me were know-it-alls, arrogant or haughty. None of them were any of that, of course.
 

oreo54

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A reminder..

It is on my Apogee 510. I did not get 3k today, but almost. Here is 1:00 today in Colorado... in winter... not as close to the sun as we will be in a few months. 2864 PAR. Apparently, there is a "but load" more here at altitude, but still would like to know a number.

Don't you need to divide that by 1.32 (water correction factor)??

2166.............
 

jda

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Did I not apply that to all of the numbers in this thread? I knew what I did not know, learned from it and used it moving forward. Instructions from a manufacturer was/is up your alley and something that could be found and applied on the internet, so I paid attention and checked it out.

I am not really sure how this applies here and kinda feels like a moving target. If it is to mean that I am adaptable and will change thoughts and views, then true. If it is to mean that you are smart and contribute to discussions, also true.

In the mean time, I did see Apogee say that going in reverse (air to water), the factor could be more like 1.25 for the models that apply the factor already, but that is not what is in their literature and hardly matters anyway, so I just filed it away and don't really use it. There is probably a logarithmic equation for this, but I don't care enough to do it with .07 being the balance.
 

oreo54

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Did I not apply that to all of the numbers in this thread? I knew what I did not know, learned from it and used it moving forward. Instructions from a manufacturer was/is up your alley and something that could be found and applied on the internet, so I paid attention and checked it out.

I am not really sure how this applies here and kinda feels like a moving target. If it is to mean that I am adaptable and will change thoughts and views, then true. If it is to mean that you are smart and contribute to discussions, also true.

In the mean time, I did see Apogee say that going in reverse (air to water), the factor could be more like 1.25 for the models that apply the factor already, but that is not what is in their literature and hardly matters anyway, so I just filed it away and don't really use it. There is probably a logarithmic equation for this, but I don't care enough to do it with .07 being the balance.
Point was I made you THINK about it ..:)
 
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Superlightman

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Great informations here, but please exchange friendly even if your belief are not the same ;-)
I found a guys on Instagram that is working on a project to create a led with the same spectrum quality than halides.
He published some nice spectrum analysis, wich I will put here.
I believe Green Light may also be important not just the uv. Because if you look the spectrum from the t5, they not have so much uv A, but they have also green.same as some black box that outperform some of the high led brands in terms of growth, they have more green. In the article from Dana, green seems also to be more present in the reef than the blue?
 

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oreo54

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Funny....3-9-2020
There is little "special" about this spectrum..
Except for the mercury green spike.. and possible addition of an IR and UV diode.. this is pretty darn close to an LED match. Thing is most woudn't "bin" all of those to that of an exact degree..
Let's just say "functionally equivalent"

Odd to quote yourself.. :)
Greens too narrow, yellow is low or non-existant blue doesn't push the teal range far enough, low 480-500nm.
assuming high K MH's though, well.. above 10,000k
ushio10000k.JPG


Only looks white due to mercury green spike and a bit of amber to go with the blue.
Nature it is not.
Most LEd's aren't either but oddly.... closer. ;)
Same with ATI tubes..
 
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oreo54

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This piqued my curiosity, so I grabbed my Apogee 510 and went running outside to take a reading. It is a bit cloudy here today in sunny Canada, but I got a high of ~2460 PAR when the sun came out briefly. I imagine it goes much higher than that.
Apogee 510 applies the underwater coefficient automatically.
Divide by 1.32...... 1863.
At the equator, the sun's intensity gives us a Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF) of 2000 µmol/m2/sec of light, which is roughly equivalent to 10,200 foot candles or 108,000 lux.

 

Dennis Cartier

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This may have already been covered in this thread, but I suspect the light uniformity plays a part with LEDs. Meaning, the more even, T5 like, light spread, the more PAR that corals can sustain, even with LED.

I also suspect that much lower PAR is still effective if delivered with enough uniformity.

I recently experienced this myself in my frag tank. I have the tank lit with 4 Reefbrite LumiLed Pro bars and 1 Orphek OR3 bar. The frag tank is shallow, 16", with the bars hanging 9" above the tank.

I don't remember what PAR level I was targeting when I installed the bars, but I do remember having to dim the bars to keep levels LPS friendly. I think I was shooting for 75-100 PAR on the bottom for LPS and 200 higher up for SPS.

After having a new frag RTN on a new frag rack, I assumed the frag was stressed by too much light. A quick test with my PAR meter showed barely more than 100 PAR. I was expecting a lot more and started testing other parts of the tank. Even the 'high light' parts that are growing acros great, were barely over 200 PAR. Not what I was expecting.

The tank.is 24" wide, and with 5 LED bars over it, the light spread is T5 like. No shadows or shimmer. I assume the uniformity of light, makes it much easier to keep across happy with a lot less light than would be the normal recommendation.
 

J1a

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This may have already been covered in this thread, but I suspect the light uniformity plays a part with LEDs. Meaning, the more even, T5 like, light spread, the more PAR that corals can sustain, even with LED.

I also suspect that much lower PAR is still effective if delivered with enough uniformity.

I recently experienced this myself in my frag tank. I have the tank lit with 4 Reefbrite LumiLed Pro bars and 1 Orphek OR3 bar. The frag tank is shallow, 16", with the bars hanging 9" above the tank.

I don't remember what PAR level I was targeting when I installed the bars, but I do remember having to dim the bars to keep levels LPS friendly. I think I was shooting for 75-100 PAR on the bottom for LPS and 200 higher up for SPS.

After having a new frag RTN on a new frag rack, I assumed the frag was stressed by too much light. A quick test with my PAR meter showed barely more than 100 PAR. I was expecting a lot more and started testing other parts of the tank. Even the 'high light' parts that are growing acros great, were barely over 200 PAR. Not what I was expecting.

The tank.is 24" wide, and with 5 LED bars over it, the light spread is T5 like. No shadows or shimmer. I assume the uniformity of light, makes it much easier to keep across happy with a lot less light than would be the normal recommendation.
It's interesting that we can all run wildly different PAR levels and yet all enjoy some level of success.

For my setup, my LPSes such as elegance coral, wilsoni, trachyphyllia, goniopora, are all under 200+ PAR. Surprisingly, they do fairly well.
 
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Superlightman

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This may have already been covered in this thread, but I suspect the light uniformity plays a part with LEDs. Meaning, the more even, T5 like, light spread, the more PAR that corals can sustain, even with LED.

I also suspect that much lower PAR is still effective if delivered with enough uniformity.

I recently experienced this myself in my frag tank. I have the tank lit with 4 Reefbrite LumiLed Pro bars and 1 Orphek OR3 bar. The frag tank is shallow, 16", with the bars hanging 9" above the tank.

I don't remember what PAR level I was targeting when I installed the bars, but I do remember having to dim the bars to keep levels LPS friendly. I think I was shooting for 75-100 PAR on the bottom for LPS and 200 higher up for SPS.

After having a new frag RTN on a new frag rack, I assumed the frag was stressed by too much light. A quick test with my PAR meter showed barely more than 100 PAR. I was expecting a lot more and started testing other parts of the tank. Even the 'high light' parts that are growing acros great, were barely over 200 PAR. Not what I was expecting.

The tank.is 24" wide, and with 5 LED bars over it, the light spread is T5 like. No shadows or shimmer. I assume the uniformity of light, makes it much easier to keep across happy with a lot less light than would be the normal recommendation.
Can be, but it is not the only reason, I had radiong5+diffuser and 4 orphek bars, so a very even spread also. Lps and some accro growing well but other not and the colors under t5 were just better, also near never stn with the t5. If I had only led I will probably not complain but ,here, I have a direct comparison . Since a few days I added 4 T5 and removed some led bars and already things seems to start improving again.I suspect more something in the spectrum than the distribution,
 

Nonya

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Depends on the model of meter and how much blue you are running. A lot of meters don't pick up the blue light well at all.
 

Dennis Cartier

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Can be, but it is not the only reason, I had radiong5+diffuser and 4 orphek bars, so a very even spread also. Lps and some accro growing well but other not and the colors under t5 were just better, also near never stn with the t5. If I had only led I will probably not complain but ,here, I have a direct comparison . Since a few days I added 4 T5 and removed some led bars and already things seems to start improving again.I suspect more something in the spectrum than the distribution,
I tend to agree about the spectrum of T5 being a big plus. You can get a similar spectrum out of LED, but it takes more care.

I have been wanting to get a spectrum analyzer, but have so far resisted. I suspect that being able to see and match T5 spectrum down to the nm should level the playing field.

I previously had 4 T5 and an AP700 over the frag tank.
 

Dennis Cartier

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Depends on the model of meter and how much blue you are running. A lot of meters don't pick up the blue light well at all.
This was a problem with the Apogee 4XX series of meters. The 5XX series have a new diode that is sensitive to the blue and violet light. I use a 510 handheld.
 
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Superlightman

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I tried to run the LED more white and green some month, but it didn't match the t5. Also, some colors not show well with LEDs for example I had a very pink pocilopora from korallenzucht ,very nice under t5 you can see him, also a yellow coral, but with the LED even if I run them white they look horrible no pink at all and the yellow turn green after some time.to see a bit the nice color, I have to turn all blue channel to zero and just keep the whites. Which is probably not the best spectrum for my corals?and to not use half of the leds.. With t5 even if I run them white I'm still sure to get enough blue.
Led are good to show the fluorescence if some corals, but that is it and if you look your corals under whites they look horrible, whereas t5 color most of them for real.
But I still hope that led improving to get the same results.
 

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Hello,
Since I went from hybrid led(radion g5/ t5 ) to full led (radion g5/led bars) some months ago ,some acroporas are fine and grow well, for other, or they not grow, or they die, or they bleach.
Did you experience also that some aren't happy with leds when some thrives?
I have also the feel that under t5/halides you can keep the paar higher,when with the led, you have to go more down? I have the feel that 300 paar led are stronger for corals than 300 from another light?
Wich with par levels have you the most success?


From the thousands of posts I have seen on here, the difference appears to be in the spectrum, not the source of light. 600 par distributed across the spectrum of colors is tolerated better than 600 across a narrow spectrum.
 

oreo54

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From the thousands of posts I have seen on here, the difference appears to be in the spectrum, not the source of light. 600 par distributed across the spectrum of colors is tolerated better than 600 across a narrow spectrum.
Which narrow spectrum?
aticomp.JPG



Orphek_Atlantik_v4_reef_spctrum.jpg


Depends how you run them..
 

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