Are all acros loving led? Are coral enduring less par from led than T5/halides?

[oreo54]

Just out of curiosity,you keep a reef tank correct ? I just always see you in the lighting forum and have never seen a tank thread.

No... The that' s why I limit it to the physics parts.
I build, design and help w/ fw lighting mostly.

BS Botany. Greenhouse work, photosynthesis groupie...blah blah blah.

Long story..... Starting at ReefCentral..

 

[Steven Garland]

No... The that' s why I limit it to the physics parts.
I build, design and help w/ fw lighting mostly.

BS Botany. Greenhouse work, photosynthesis groupie...blah blah blah.

Long story..... Starting at ReefCentral..

Ahhh,okay. I was just wondering.

 

[oreo54]

Ahhh,okay. I was just wondering.

No it's good to question.. I try to stay in my "lane" .
Want to know how to maximize light spread or estimate PAR or whatever . I may answer.
If you ask me "what corals to put where" well NOT my territory.
Compare the spectrums.. OK.
Push reflectors over lenses.. OK.

Like I said, stay in my lane..
Any deviation will just be to present found data from "experts"..for you to decide.

The apparently NEVER ENDING comparisons of one photon generator to another is er.. fascinating..
If I find data I present it.. No personal coloring.

zooxanthellae

1. a yellowish-brown symbiotic dinoflagellate present in large numbers in the cytoplasm of many marine invertebrates.
   

Part of the photosynthetic family adapted for a marine environment.
Just has an "animal" tagging along.

 

[oreo54]

Again, you are taking the wrong message from this. My idea is based off of Dana Riddle's work and why corals people appeared to bleach corals with leds and that in Dana's study, the MH allowed for the zooxanthellae to tolerate higher par levels before photoinhibitom kicks in. My argument is that, in his study, he used a very narrow spectrum led and the metal halide. He also noted missing a certain kind of red prevents the zooxanthellae from offsetting light stress with their photosystems. If you look at plants, they also use a red/blue combo for photosynthesis to overcome physics issues (sci show has a neat video on this).


My point is that, those who have struggled to achieve similar par values with leds compared to those with t5 or metal halide setups (i.e. par at 600 or so) may be doing so because many leds or fixtures have very narrow spectrums. Again, the examples you provide are not relevant to what I am saying. I am not saying that there are not narrow t5 or mh bulbs or that there are not wide spectrum leds. I am am led fan myself and think the other two technologies are outdated. BUT, I think that, if someone wants to achieve par levels of 600, they need to achieve that with a more balanced color spectrum rather than 80% of that intensity coming from small blue (particularly in the case of leds with narrow spectrums) . I hypothesize that some mechanism of photosynthesis is stressed when light intensity is focused into a small range of wavelength vs distributed across a wider color range. One could test this by comparing the photosaturation points of the same coral (frags from the same colony and part of the colony) under the same par level but have all colors output the same par under one.


Again I'm using a lot of generalized statements without detail as I don't really have time to write a paper on this lol

Are you referring to this?

That shows a full spectrum MH shuts down photosynthesis sooner and overall photosynthesis levels lower than an LED.
In other words the led lit one tolerated higher par levels than the mh one.
almost 500 par b4 the led driven one starts shutting down.
Technically interesting but sort of useless except as a curiosity or starting point.
People really ran with that one eh...

Instead of MH vs... it is best to see why some led tanks can go high level PAR while others can't.
AFAICT it isn't universal.
Also some can thrive on very low par levels. So I have been told.

I'm pretty sure some tanks couldn't take high par MH's either.
Throw in err possible clad differences in one species or different species.. gets complicated fast.

 

[Nonya]

I'm pretty sure some tanks couldn't take high par MH's either.

Let's talk about MH...

Throw in err possible clad differences in one species or different species.. gets complicated fast.

Clad? Clad in what?

 

[oreo54]

clade.. You may run out of micro complaints soon..

 

[Nonya]

It is in English..

Got more nits to pick?
Guess so..

You said Japanese to English.
You can't come here arguing a point when your references are irrelevant to the subject (i.e., using non-saltwater/coral photosynthesis material).

 

[Nonya]

clade.. You may run out of micro complaints soon..

Microaggressions.

 

[oreo54]

You said Japanese to English.
You can't come here arguing a point when your references are irrelevant to the subject (i.e., using non-saltwater/coral photosynthesis material).

Curves correct.. Labels wrong..

 

[Nonya]

Curves correct.. Labels wrong..

Then the entire thing is questionable.

 

[Steven Garland]

Well this got out of hand quickly lol. Isn't there 4000 threads about this already ? Kinda feel like this one is yet again beating a dead horse.

But while we are on the subject,I feel like when it comes to spectrum halides and t5's have leds beat. Leds come close,but walked down the long hallway,got to the door,knocked but never came in the room just my .2 .

But as for par,the par recieved in those spectrums is what made them so great.

 

[Nonya]

Well this got out of hand quickly lol. Isn't there 4000 threads about this already ? Kinda feel like this one is yet again beating a dead horse.

But while we are on the subject,I feel like when it comes to spectrum halides and t5's have leds beat. Leds come close,but walked down the long hallway,got to the door,knocked but never came in the room just my .2 .

But as for par,the par recieved in those spectrums is what made them so great.

So I posted a survey a week ago asking what people are using over their primary coral tank. The results have been consistent since the beginning.

People using halides alone account for only 1.9% of the total. That's less than 1 in 50.
T-5-only make up 7.1%
LEDs-only make up 57.7%. They can't all be wrong if that's they're primary coral lighting.
An interesting number of mixed-lighting types, though.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-lighting-type-s-do-you-use-over-your-primary-coral-tank

 

[Steven Garland]

Which I do believe,halides are hard to find fixtures and bulbs. T5 fixtures are being left behind because EVERYONE uses leds due to control,life,no bulb changing and popularity.

I don't doubt that to be true,but I have felt like we forgot where we came from as a hobby and thats what sucks because the corals grown under halides and t5's blow leds out of the water 100-1.

Comparing a acro grown under pheonix 14k vs the same coral grown under a led light at 14k will be nice and day.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Lol, well that was fast. I was just lamenting manufacturers tendency to use 450nm LEDs and not 430nm LEDs, which I feel are a better fit in most cases, and I just noticed Orphek has now released a OR3 Violet Reef Day Plus. Essentially a 1:1 of 430nm LEDs and 18K white LEDs.

 

[Nonya]

Which I do believe,halides are hard to find fixtures and bulbs. T5 fixtures are being left behind because EVERYONE uses leds due to control,life,no bulb changing and popularity.

I don't doubt that to be true,but I have felt like we forgot where we came from as a hobby and thats what sucks because the corals grown under halides and t5's blow leds out of the water 100-1.

Comparing a acro grown under pheonix 14k vs the same coral grown under a led light at 14k will be nice and day.

My experience differs. I replaced two 400W 14,000K and two actinic VHOs with 260W of blue, RB and white LEDs and my SPS took off. I had to turn the whites way down.

 

[Nonya]

Lol, well that was fast. I was just lamenting manufacturers tendency to use 450nm LEDs and not 430nm LEDs, which I feel are a better fit in most cases, and I just noticed Orphek has now released a OR3 Violet Reef Day Plus. Essentially a 1:1 of 430nm LEDs and 18K white LEDs.

430 seems an odd choice, considering the absorption curve of the blue spectrum.

 

[Bpb]

Which I do believe,halides are hard to find fixtures and bulbs. T5 fixtures are being left behind because EVERYONE uses leds due to control,life,no bulb changing and popularity.

I don't doubt that to be true,but I have felt like we forgot where we came from as a hobby and thats what sucks because the corals grown under halides and t5's blow leds out of the water 100-1.

Comparing a acro grown under pheonix 14k vs the same coral grown under a led light at 14k will be nice and day.

A lot of blanket statements there which have no place on either side of the argument. People haven’t forgotten where we came from. Most new hobbyists don’t even know where we came from. They hit the ground running with currently available tech. And don’t concern themselves with the days of Philips 5500k halide bulbs in bare sockets screwed to plywood, illuminating tanks full of cabbage leather and sinularia. That’s just the truth.

Most of us who ran halides for years and switched didn’t find the difference to be night and day. Most of us find the difference to be nominal at best.

 

[Nonya]

430 seems an odd choice, considering the absorption curve of the blue spectrum.

My preference would be primarily 450 and 470 (or was it 460 and 475?), and a few whites before adding anything "new".

 

[Kfactor]

pick what you like and roll with it at the end of the day its your tank. i went mh/led and love it i was no good at tuning led lights i just wanted somthing that turned on and i cant screw with lol

 

[Nonya]

A lot of blanket statements there which have no place on either side of the argument. People haven’t forgotten where we came from. Most new hobbyists don’t even know where we came from. They hit the ground running with currently available tech. And don’t concern themselves with the days of Philips 5500k halide bulbs in bare sockets screwed to plywood, illuminating tanks full of cabbage leather and sinularia. That’s just the truth.

Most of us who ran halides for years and switched didn’t find the difference to be night and day. Most of us find the difference to be nominal at best.

Funny you should mention. I have a huge cabbage leather under LEDs. Brown with fluorescent green polyps.

As far as "way back", my first DIY effort was using three 250W outdoor MH light fixtures as the basis for my first MH lighting system. No splash guards. I can't remember if I used 5,500 or 6,500K bulbs.