Are pride and hard work dead?

[blackdogal73]

The truth is that a lot of the items we have in our set ups are knockoffs, copies, infringements, etc...

Where would this hobby be without them?

Have any of you ever setup opposing powerheads to create a cross currant?

Timed your auto feeder with the timer on your return pump to stop?

Maybe had more than one return pump on different timers to create flow from different ends of the tank to simulate tides coming and going?

I'm NOT for stealing someone's idea and innovation, but a lot of the things we pay high dollar for are nothing more than new ways to do "old" things...

 

[mcarroll]

I'm going to twist yalls brains. This wasn't the first place on the Internet to discuss reefing. Yet here we are. Should we all leave and go back to the aol chat rooms of the 90's??

There are always levels of similar products and people vote with their dollars. thats what keeps companies innovating. They have to offer something better than the copy cats or they'll die. Competition is good business for us hobbyists on many levels.

Competition is terrible for business.

In a nutshell, the big guy willing to cheat (copy/play dirty/et al) always wins. And there's always a big guy willing to cheat. AOL was actually a great example vs CompuServe and vs the public internet. (Off topic, long story.)

Main Street is as dead as it is in the USA due to this.

 

[MikeCizzle]

Well all I can say is that Jebao DC pumps and wave makers are only good for a year if anything. Both my DC pumps failed on me 2 weeks apart on both my tanks. Now I'm back to my trusty and reliable MagDrive pumps. The truth is that both DC pumps payed for themselves with the energy savings for the year but they could've wiped my tank out if I didn't have my back up pumps. That's a couple of hundreds in coral and fish. IT'S NOT WORTH IT! I'm starting to save my money for 2016 Black Friday sale now and plan on buying Ecotech everything. Lol

 

[Lowell Lemon]

You know another thing that really gets is I always try and buy the best of equipment. I personally run vortech pumps in my tank. I paid the outrageous price on these things because I wanted the best. Thinking I made a great purchase, not knowing the life span is 8 months on the wet side and trash if the dry side breaks. I don't know about you guys but I worked really hard to save up money to purchase them. It's not like I could order another and not even think about it. Also radions you pay $500 for 2ft by 2ft spread, come on. Before you know it paying over $1000 for lights. How are we to keep new comers interested in joining this hobby. It's becoming a hobby for the rich.

I am not currently a dealer...but the Tunze Classic pump and Tunze pumps in general are better quality and last longer than your experience with the Vortech which is a Chinese made pump if I recall. I have had Tunze and Eheim pumps and filters run for over 20 years. Forget the other brands of Chinese made to order and private labeled junk. Nothing beats quality manufacturing and durable designs with the correct plastics and related components. Many of the manufactures are actually quite small and produce limited quantities of product compared to the buy and throw away products like Marineland, API, Tetra, and others. The industry research indicates that most people leave the hobby in less than two years so many design, package, and manufacture to that standard. Not what I need after spending money on livestock that depends on consist ant results for success.

 

[mcarroll]

[...]I'm starting to save my money for 2016 [...]

Save money?!?!

Wow - someone older-than-old-fashioned like me!

I always say save your money.

It gives you time to figure out who's really worth the extra $ they are charging over the knockoffs and who's just gouging based on gimmicks or buzz. It's different, but there's as much danger in buying at the high end as there is at the low end of the market.

(PM)

 

[chefjpaul]

CAPITALISM

 

[MikeCizzle]

These water pumps are the life support of both my aquariums. If you do buy Jebao, make sure you have back up pumps. That's probably a rule in this hobby in general.

 

[FlyinBryan]

This thread may have gone off track, no time to read all. I personally buy from those who put up the $$$ to support sites and forums like this.
If buying only the cheapest at every single turn the hobby and innovation will suffer.
We need these sites, to keep the ocean in our glass boxes going, that's why I support those who support us and sponsors of the hobby.
There's no free ride, we have to be willing to give more by buying from them!
My $.02!

Thanks again to all who support this site and who work hard to keep it good!

 

[TaylorPilot]

It's a fine line between allowing someone to protect and profit from their IP, and allowing someone a monopoly to either price gouge, or turn out an inferior product because they are the only place to get it. Maxspect has made an innovative product using a basic squirrel cage that has been used for a century in air conditioners. Does that innovation provide them enough of a right to say they own that blower design if it gets put underwater? I don't know. I do know that if it does or doesn't, it will get worked out in court. Until then, I am sure they will make the pumps, and you as a consumer have the right to decide if it is something you want to buy or boycott. I personally haven't had an issue with any of their earlier pumps, because everyone is making DC pumps and standard controllable power heads. This new one does look a little suspect, considering the timing of its arrival. I think companies will always push the boundaries of what is IP and what isn't, it is up to the individual consumer to determine if their practices fall within the ethical boundaries they wish to do business in. JMHO

 

[Brandon Donaldson]

In eany hobby that has a sudden increase in popularity there will be a new demand for cheaper products that do the same basic thing it allows the broker people to be able to enjoy this hobby I'm a full time collage student I can not spend 200 to $300 on pumps that I can get for 50 to $60 if have to drop out I work hard to keep my tank looking its beast and I buy the beast I can buy should I not be in this hobby cuz I cannot afford a $250 $300 $400 pump light skimmer etc ? there have been a lot of post lately bought how cheep we have become were not cheep we buy the beast we can afford

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Amazon has been known to sell at a loss when they are trying to get into a market. I always buy from my local store for that kind of stuff. Even if it is a few dollars more.

The closest LFS for me is 160 miles away so mail order, internet is the only practical thing to do. BRS, Marine Depot, Aquarium specialty and even Amazon.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Just my 2 cents, but how is the hobby to keep growing if the younger people who will be the future hobbyists can't afford to get into it because they can't afford to spend $300 dollars on a pump or $500 on a light fixture?

Without new blood this will become a stale hobby without innovation and creativity. Maybe it stops someone who could have made a major breakthrough from doing just that because they couldn't afford to start out.

It's hard to be a part time capitalist. You are either for a free market system or you're not. This shouldn't be an elitist hobby. It should be open to anyone who wants to enjoy what we are so passionate about. These "innovative" companies with their breakthrough products need to take a long hard look at the global marketplace. Outsourcing is a way of life and has been for years. They can't make all their profits solely on the backs of their customers. They need to have some responsibility on controlling their costs as well.

And BTW besides the recovery of R&D does anyone really know what the profit margin on some of this overpriced equipment really is? I bet it would astound everyone.

Someone in an earlier post mentioned the Hyundai as an example. I totally agree. Personally I found it hard to buy a new BMW when I can get much more car by buying a Kia. I have both currently and yes I know they drive differently but I gotta tell you the BMW doesn't even offer some of the amenities at any price that the Kia comes with as standard equipment. Not to mention the quality and cost of ownership.

Hard to feel sorry for these companies when you see some of the prices they can get away with.

I will leave my rant on dime size frags for $400 for another post. I guess this was more like a 50 dollar speech rather than a 2 cent rant. Thanks for listening and I hope I haven't offended anyone's sense abilities.

I could reply to some of the markups but you have to understand the fact that price is determined by many factors. R&D, labor, insurance, shipping, manufacturing cost per item (overhead) and includes the estimated number of units you can sell per year or business cycle. Without going to far in that discussion a manufacturer deserves to make a profit for their employees and other stake holders. In this industry the potential customer base is fairly small compared to consumers of cars, houses, or cell phones for example. As a result the per unit cost is higher since their is little chance of disrupting a small customer base with something everyone needs or wants. Just like the discussion between glass or acrylic aquariums the cost is not always the bottom line. Some people prefer glass and some acrylic depending on the application. Until we have transparent aluminum (joke from Startrek(TM)) other options are not going to disrupt the current channels for aquariums. New technology in equipment is great but many of the products are largely untested unlike the manufacturers of automobiles or aircraft. Our hobby is not a wide spread industry and therefore does not command the same economies of scale as other industries. Some long term players like Tunze and Eheim are closer to the testing and development of long term products simply because of the German mindset of making long lasting products. Many do no understand the mindset of the German hobbyist in comparison to the North American consumer. For example many homes in Germany have aquariums that have been passed down to the next generation already. The American consumer only stays in the hobby on the average less than two years. There is a huge difference in the requirements of both customer groups because of these differences.
Now lets address the cost of equipment. In many cases I have noticed that the hobbyist is much like a fisherman. In a sporting goods store most of the lures are designed to catch fishermen and not fish. Why do I say this...I have many lures that have never caught a fish no matter how many time I have used them. My tackle box is much smaller now days than in the past. The same is true of aquarium store owners and hobbyist as they are all impulse buyers. I realized years ago if I carried extra inventory on my delivery truck I would double my sales in aquariums and stands on any given day when delivering an order to my customers. If they had a good day in sales I could have a great day in sales or they just might gamble on selling the extra aquariums before my next delivery. It was amazing to see how that worked. I just got tired of being on the road 2-3 weeks out of the month and giving the motel and restaurant owners all my hard earned cash. So what is my point...natural aquariums can do very well without a lot of the latest and greatest equipment. It is not necessary to spend $1000.00 to light a reef tank or provide water movement. But it is sexy to show off you latest lure...I mean light system. The cost will remain high for new generation limited production equipment. If you are an early adopter you will pay for that new Apple Iphone no matter the limited ability it has over the last Iphone. Manufactures know this and we call it "creaming the top of the market". Now a manufacturer gets into trouble when there new product does not perform at the higher price. But if they can gain market share the price per unit drops and the later adopters glean the best products at the best prices. It is just economies of scale all over again. My 10 cent answer to your $50.00 rant.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I'm surprised they haven't done that.

In the not to distant past this has been tried. But I think it is a problem for the manufactures since it restricts there foot print nationally. Only ADA aquariums, Elos, Red Sea, and some others take this market approach now days. This prevents the product being available to many customers and keeps the lower production items at a higher price. Eheim crossed into the main distribution channel years ago and as a result many of their products are not available in North America in comparison to Europe. More LFS should pick up a line of products that are higher quality and not available via the internet or mass merchandisers. Create their own line of tanks or develop a private label relationship with a manufacturer. This is the future growth area for brick and mortar stores. Make a commitment to good high quality products and livestock and let Petco(TM) and Petsmart(M) slug it out for the dollar gallon leakers and ugly tanks. The LFS should not use the same retail systems holding systems of the mass merchandisers as well. Make a statement go up scale or more natural and drop the plastic plants and glow in the dark fish. Teach the customer how to be successful with a tried and true formula before cutting them lose to improvise. JMHO

 

[atoll]

Let's look back at little in time which often teachers us about the future and take Japan and the British motorcycle industry as an example but there are others.
Back in the 50/60s Japan copied British design. The British motorcycle industry wasn't concerned. Then the Japanese began improving those designs and are cheaper than the British counter parts. the British were only slightly worried however. Then the Japanese innovates new exciting products, the British motorcycle industry was no more. I can see the same happening here with what IMO is over pricing of products by the likes of Maxspec. Jebao will bring affordability as they are doing to the market and I bet their Gyre will be an improvement without splitting cables or noisy mounts and motors. I for one hope Jebao succeed. I also like choice where and how I spend my hard earned money.

 

[Newb73]

I own all except Tunze.

Jaebo - 1st set died after about a year. The 40s died before the 15s. 2nd Set still has the issue of losing most of its power in 6 weeks. RW-series...better but too soon to tell. Controlable on an apex like a tunze.

Gyre - Not as hard to disassemble and maintain as people say but unlike other pumps it is possible to reassemble in a way that will allow the pump to run (not idiot proof)...but run like crap (I've done it but immediately pulled it and corrected) Best flow from any single pump I've ever seen. Possible to control on an apex....I use mine with a 10 second full power pulse every 40 or 50 seconds like a wave box and then a cont flow at 40%

Vortech-Best plug 'n play pump on the market. The QD still has some noise but it's not bad. Modular design greatly reduces long term maintenance. A wet side is actually cheaper than a Jaebo. Wxm for apex is also fairly plug and play. Wireless design makes it a superior pump for deep tanks where you have the pump deeper in tank. Wider flow pattern than any Jaebo, or wav. Westside disassembly also not idiot proof.

Apex Wav. Louder than advertised. Telemetry makes it the best pump for people who are away from tank (With Jaebos and Gyre being the worst because they can/will fail when you aren't around. No tele from a vortech but it's reliability is solid). Easiest apex controller set up, easiest set up for synching multiple pumps to do patterns together. (wireless communication with larger tanks and multiple vortechs isn't as fool proof) With a replacement cost cheaper than either tunze or Vortech (whole pump-$199) not too scarey a cost. Some what disappointing performance from the pumps themselves...could be first generation issue, may need more frequent cleanings. ..not sure if telemetry reads right...too soon to tell. They are easy to dissemble and clean. ..standard pump design.

Interesting that I can't pick a winner. If the gyre wasn't a reliability question mark it wins in flow. The wav is the most idiot proof and the Vortech is the reliability king..so far.

The Jaebo is entry level performance for entry level cost but I would say that those of you swearing this is your go to pump are probably hurting yourself more than you are helping with the flow issue and short life span.

Hydro - I use in my salt mixing stations and have a small one in my sump where the 2-part drips in. Good pump for continuous run applications....terrible pump for on-off and wave maker functuons. Easy to clean. Motorblock goes after 2-3 years.

I don't have any aqua medic etc. Never could justify the cost of a tunze with their limited features but they supposedly bring you the best combination in idiot proof and long term reliability.

 

[TheEngineer]

This conversation has shown some interesting insights. I'd like to pull the thread a little more on the one that focuses on price being the driving force.

There have been several comments which indicate they believe these copycat devices are OK because they provide a cheaper alternative to other products. Those comments seem to ignore the fact that the cheaper items can be had for a lower cost because they don't include the costs of developing the technology in the first place. By extension that seems to promote the intellectual property theft, in my opinion. I've been at both ends of the financial spectrum in this hobby. I started worrying about paying even the additional electrical cost at the beginning. I allot myself $10/week to my tank and it goes into a savings account each Friday. If I want an expensive pump, I save for it or sell other equipment or sell a frag. Why is that not a viable option for the hobby as a whole? None of these expensive pumps, lights, dosers, controllers, etc. are needed to be successful in the hobby. They are nice-to-haves. Some of the best tanks on here use "old-school" approaches that could be achieved very inexpensively today.

I don't like the argument that if something is too expensive it is OK for someone to cheat to make it cheaper. We seem to make a lot of comparisons to cars on here, so let's continue that line of thinking. If you can't afford a BMW, would you expect Ford to copy BMW's designs and sell it to you for cheaper? No, of course not. You would expect a different kind of car from Ford. Or you would buy a used BMW for the price of a new Ford.

 

[TheEngineer]

As to the argument about free markets and capitalism, I think people are missing some of the finer points. A free market economy allows pricing to be set without intervention by the government. It also creates a low barrier to entry so that other companies can create competing products. That does not mean it creates an opportunity for companies to steal designs. For a free market economy to work, it must self-regulate. Government, at its core, is supposed to protect the interests of its people. I contend that the interests of the people are best protected when the works they produce generate a result only for their creator or the creator's designee(s).

Think about authors... Any one of us could run out and photocopy an entire book, put a staple in the corner and sell it. Do we condone or allow that? Why would someone essentially doing the same thing with a widget be any different?

 

[Newb73]

Cont. My sicce skimmer pump has been impressive. ..much better than either of the DC skimmer pumps on my RO skimmer. The 2nd Gen DC skimmer pumps have surpassed the performance of the miserable junk 1st gens.

I run a trio of unpopular Deep Blue triton pond pumps on my returns. They are like $60ish and dead reliable. I plan to install a set of online Neptune flow meters so that the apex can turn on back ups and or kill the skimmer and send me alerts if a flow problem is detected by the u have confidence in these pumps.

Not a fan of DC returns, my skimmer relies on an exact sump level and consistent return flow.

 

[Diesel]

By extension that seems to promote the intellectual property theft, in my opinion.

And this is what it's all about!!

Apple vs Samsung............. same!! Apple won on above grounds.

 

[Newb73]

The savings also comes from poor manufacturing. Chinese knock offs have much looser manufacturing tolerances which can greatly reduce manufacturers cost. What I mean by that is say...a gap for instance is allowed to vary between 2mm and 5mm for a Chinese knock off as opposed to only being allowed at a 2mm to 3mm for a tunze or vortech. Like wise the failure rates in the wiring may be allowed at 1 in 50 for a jaebo as opposed to 1 in 1000 for a Vortech.

The 1st Gen jaebo/RO/waveline pumps had a 80% failure rate inside the 12 month warranty period labeled as "poor qc". In reality it wasn't poor QC it was business as usual...the "poor" part was simply that it failed just inside the warranty period as opposed to just out of warranty.

Add in cheap virtual slave labor in a Chinese sweat shop versus the US wage of an American company and there is your price difference.

Yes the name brand products fail too....just at a much lower rate, and usually after a much longer service life.

Using the automotive example it's generally the Fords, Dodge, GM products with the looser manufacturing tolerances and higher failure rates while the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissan se etc have tighter manufacturing toketances, better QC and lower failure rates. Domestic automotive repairs are often off set by the cheaper costs of replacement parts when a repair is necessary however but that benefit has been diminishing...and worsened by the use of Chinese parts.

Japanese parts = Quality. Chinese parts = Junk. Domestic companies have been using Chinese subcontractors lately which means you get both low quality and shipping costs....way to go Ford. When domestic companies use Japanese parts they are usually quality parts though.....this is all exacerbated by the fact many Americans don't differentiate between Japanese and Chinese in their thought process.

This conversation has shown some interesting insights. I'd like to pull the thread a little more on the one that focuses on price being the driving force.

There have been several comments which indicate they believe these copycat devices are OK because they provide a cheaper alternative to other products. Those comments seem to ignore the fact that the cheaper items can be had for a lower cost because they don't include the costs of developing the technology in the first place. By extension that seems to promote the intellectual property theft, in my opinion. I've been at both ends of the financial spectrum in this hobby. I started worrying about paying even the additional electrical cost at the beginning. I allot myself $10/week to my tank and it goes into a savings account each Friday. If I want an expensive pump, I save for it or sell other equipment or sell a frag. Why is that not a viable option for the hobby as a whole? None of these expensive pumps, lights, dosers, controllers, etc. are needed to be successful in the hobby. They are nice-to-haves. Some of the best tanks on here use "old-school" approaches that could be achieved very inexpensively today.

I don't like the argument that if something is too expensive it is OK for someone to cheat to make it cheaper. We seem to make a lot of comparisons to cars on here, so let's continue that line of thinking. If you can't afford a BMW, would you expect Ford to copy BMW's designs and sell it to you for cheaper? No, of course not. You would expect a different kind of car from Ford. Or you would buy a used BMW for the price of a new Ford.