Are pride and hard work dead?

[4FordFamily]

I see a some Bernie sanders economists here (more succinctly, one without remedial knowledge of economics).

 

[TheEngineer]

I see a some Bernie sanders economists here (more succinctly, one without remedial knowledge of economics).

Here I thought you were going to say something about me using Ford as an example. :) Let's keep the politics out of it or I suspect this post will go the way of the Dodo bird.

 

[Khackman]

Amazon has been known to sell at a loss when they are trying to get into a market. I always buy from my local store for that kind of stuff. Even if it is a few dollars more.

In addition to teaching Zoology, I work in a store that sells birding specialty gear. Amazon was caught last week violating the terms of agreement with one of the high end binocular companies. We sell them at the lowest price the company allows them to be sold. A patron came in and wanted a new pair, but wanted us to match Amazon's price, which was $120 less than our price, which again, is the lowest the company allows them to be sold for. Amazon just lost their distributorship license for that high end company, and were fined per original agreement with the company. I wonder how much that is going on? To say nothing of the sales tax losses states face, and the loss to the local economy. I live in Mississippi- arguably the poorest state in the nation. I learned from a friend that works for the Mississippi Economic Development authority that Mississippi is losing $1 billion a year to lost sales tax revenue due to Amazon. We can't afford that! One of our two LFS locales has already gone out of business due to online, non-taxed, bulk profit sales. I just hope I don't lose the last one in my area. That lost store cost our economy 8 jobs, the owners life savings, and no telling how much lost sales tax revenue.

 

[TheEngineer]

Amazon was caught last week violating the terms of agreement with one of the high end binocular companies

That's unfortunate. I personally don't like minimum advertised pricing (MAP), but if you agree to something you should stick to it.

Mississippi is losing $1 billion a year to lost sales tax revenue due to Amazon

That's an issue for the state legislature. Unfortunately our governments work at a much slower pace than technology does. I am charged sales tax for Amazon orders because they have a presence in my state.

 

[timkenagy]

As the title suggests, have we come so far as a group of hobbyists that we accept the flagrant duplication of hard work that is done by those dedicated to providing us new and innovative technologies? So long as there are products to be sold there will be knockoffs, but why do we as a group enable these endeavors to be profitable?

A recent discussion surrounded Jebao's Jecod gyre pump and just now I saw a new post for a Kelo DM light which clearly copies Kessil's work.

We always profess that we are responsible stewards of the pieces of the ocean we look after and that we should be afforded the right for our hobby to continue to draw from our oceans. Why then do we allow this type of activity to continue unimpeded? Why don't we as a group stand up against these types of profiteering?

First thoughts.. If they truly are stealing the design then we have patents to protect from that. An article I just read stated Maxspect has lawyers working on it now. I personally wouldn't buy because it's clearly to me a rip off of thier idea... That said I do have Maxspects version and it's full of little delicate pieces, as well as a pretty complex controller. So I can't imagine the copycat being anything of quality.

I do own the Jaebo wp40 wavemakers however. These I don't feel are a close enough copy to Ecotechs design to call a ripoff. I can name at least six off the top off my head that look similar and the pulse feature isn't just ecotech. I'd love to own an USA brand but I'm not gonna spend $1500 getting flow in my tanks. So if Jaebo wasn't here it still wouldn't be Ecotech.

 

[Khackman]

Strangely enough, there is another interesting parallel here. For those of you that are familiar with Ugg boots, did you know that you cannot buy the real thing in the US? The ones sold here are cheap Chinese knockoffs worth less than $10 each. I lead tour groups Down Under in the summer and learned this from Aussies. Uggs are not exported to the US. Ugg Australia was trademarked by a Chinese company and they have flooded the American market with them. Look inside every pair here and you will find the Made in China label. I just find it hilarious when my students discover they paid $200 plus for $10 Chinese knockoffs!

 

[blackdogal73]

And this is what it's all about!!

Apple vs Samsung............. same!! Apple won on above grounds.

I "googled" Apple vs Samsung and without going too deep, found that Apple won in the U.S. and Samsung won in other countries...

I can understand your frustration about an entity stealing an idea, I just don't understand why it seems to be just this Jebao version of the Gyre. Or is it other vendors and their products, also?

If you look at a lot of the newer products today, they aren't new innovations, but rather a different way of doing an "old" thing.

Proper R&D would have uncovered the issues that customers have with the Gyre, and then the only obstacle would have been setting a price that would attract customers enough that they wouldn't look for alternatives.

The Gyre is not a new idea or concept, but rather a single device that does the job that took several power heads and several timers in days past.

To many times, manufacturers add bells or whistles to a product just so they can say it's their idea, when in reality you can find older technology that did the same thing.

 

[TheEngineer]

I agree to a point @blackdogal73. I think the analogy is a fair one, but perhaps a bit too simple. The argument you make would place wireless telegraphy (first use of radio waves in the 1800s) and Wifi in the same category. Is Wifi is just more bells and whistles on top of wireless telegraphy? I contend it is more than that. To address your earlier point, my intent for this thread is not to single out Jebao. My intent is to address the trend in general. I started the thread after seeing a sale thread for a Kessil knockoff, but I certainly associate it with an earlier thread discussing the Jecob Crossflow.

 

[TomatoSauceTy]

When I go to the grocery should I not by store brand products because they are cheaper and identical to some other products? Should I not by the CVS brand medicine that does the same thing as the +$5 item?

Sure, people recognize quality items and will go with that while others will choose to save their money and get the same effect. Obviously some people will by a certain product just because it gives them a holier than thou feeling even though at the end of the day they are only fooling themselves.

How many of you here have went to buy something and at the end of the day said hell I can go home and make that for a 1/10 of the price?! I'm pretty sure many of you have and many of you do...Jebao just decided to profit on it.

Enjoy your knitting circle.

 

[joeboots82520]

Keeping our economy flowing is a big deal but its hard to do these day when all the big companies are doing the same thing we as consumers are doing. We look to find products cheaper between online vendors and in store deals it's no different then a company outsourcing its manufacturing. So the company that we're supposed to be supporting are doing the same thing. I went into PC Richards to buy an air conditioner two years ago. The salesman that I trust shows me two GE AC units both identical model numbers except one is $100 dollars less?? How could that be? He told me look at them closely. One unit had a much sturdier housing and the wire mesh frame protecting the condenser on one was twice the thickness. He explained one was built in the USA the other outsourced from somewhere else. I spent the extra 100 bucks but thats my personal preference.
Getting back to the reefing side of this if big companies are worried about being knocked off why not offer consumers options? Take a page out of the GE book. Make your own knock off and offer consumers different models not just in size but in quality. People know when they buy a cheaper product they get what they pay for. And I know this hobby is expensive and I tried cutting corners when I started three years ago and since then have learned from my mistakes. I bought the knock off chinese LEDs and now have two radion pros. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
BUT whats to stop ecotech from making a cheaper model for beginners or people on a tight budget? And this goes for all manufacturers. If they were concerned with being knocked off they would have done it already.
So getting back to the original post you cant be mad at the consumer for buying cheaper products because part of the blame is the big manufacturers dont make it easy for everyone to own their products.

 

[TheEngineer]

When I go to the grocery should I not by store brand products because they are cheaper and identical to some other products? Should I not by the CVS brand medicine that does the same thing as the +$5 item?

Sure, people recognize quality items and will go with that while others will choose to save their money and get the same effect. Obviously some people will by a certain product just because it gives them a holier than thou feeling even though at the end of the day they are only fooling themselves.

How many of you here have went to buy something and at the end of the day said hell I can go home and make that for a 1/10 of the price?! I'm pretty sure many of you have and many of you do...Jebao just decided to profit on it.

Enjoy your knitting circle.

You're examples are unfortunately not on par with the situation. Store branded food products are not copies of patented items. They are generic versions of a general product. Generic medicines are in fact copies of other products AFTER the patent has expired or the manufacturer has decided to license the patent to another manufacturer. Making something yourself is also very different from manufacturing and selling it in mass quantity.

Your knitting circle comment is uncalled for and doesn't add to the conversation. Contribute or don't, but don't belittle.

 

[TheEngineer]

if big companies are worried about being knocked off why not offer consumers options?

They do offer options. If you use Ecotech as your example, they have the MP10/40/60 options.

 

[joeboots82520]

They do offer options. If you use Ecotech as your example, they have the MP10/40/60 options.

How am i putting and mp10 on a 280 gallon tank or and mp60 on a nano? I mean price point options.

 

[joeboots82520]

How am i putting and mp10 on a 280 gallon tank or and mp60 on a nano? I mean price point options.

And Im not knocking the products I own two mp40s but why cant they offer a similar pump at a lower pricepoint maybe without all the bells and whistles but the known quality of the product.

 

[TomatoSauceTy]

I know most ppl here who won't support jeabo is because the stole an idea, even under a pending patent it's wrong and the chinaman knows it and care less.

Your knitting circle comment is uncalled for and doesn't add to the conversation. Contribute or don't, but don't belittle.

But that type of language is allowed right?

 

[TheEngineer]

How am i putting and mp10 on a 280 gallon tank or and mp60 on a nano? I mean price point options.

Those are price point options. You wouldn't ask Honda to offer you a Civic that can pull a 45' boat or use a Mack truck for your daily driver, would you?

 

[TheEngineer]

But that type of language is allowed right?

Allowed? Perhaps. What does it add to the conversation at hand? You expressed your opinion and then decided you wanted to disparage the people with the opposite opinion. That has no place on this forum, lounge or otherwise, in my opinion.

 

[tigé21v]

I think my take on all this is a little different than most. I hope I don't ruffle any feathers.
There's a place for them and the other equipment like them, in our hobby, as unfortunate as it may be. They offer a chance for people to try other things- at an affordable price.
The one thing I would love to see change in this hobby (which I know and understand never will, for obvious reasons) would be for LFS to have a "Try Before You Buy" or a rental program. They hold the price of the equipment on your CC , and give you "x" number of days or weeks to try it out. Both the cheap stuff and the high end equipment. If you like it, great. If it's not for you, then you're not out ridiculous amounts of money and trying to resell it for pennies on the dollar. The number of threads I've seen over the years of people selling new or nearly equipment because it wasn't what was best for their situation is staggering. I honestly feel if most people had a chance to try the equipment out to see if it worked for their application, and then read the reviews, before having to make the financial commitment, they would go with the higher end stuff. Even if it was more than what they were hoping to spend, I think many would have little problem justifying the added expense.
I have run just about every powerhead on the market in my tanks at one time or another. Currently I have a Gyre and MP's running (through an Apex) in the main, and maxijets with DIY spray bars in the anemone tank. (Pretty much both ends of the spectrum.)
I have a pair of jebaos I picked up when they first hit the US market. I was warned by my local club about burning my house down with the "cheap Chinese junk". Fast forward to a couple years later, and I would guess better than half of our club's members have jebaos in their tank.... As for mine, they are laying on the shelf in the basement. I ran them for about a year, then one of them crapped out a little after the one year mark. Some say give a good cleaning and it'll be good to go. Maybe one day I'll try. And as a sidenote, it wasn't the cheapo Chinese powerheads that caught on fire one afternoon when I just happened to be home, it was my (German engineered) Aquacontroller powerbar.
I have a couple of vortechs, a MP40 and a MP60. The MP40 I purchased back in 2010. I dropped 525 clams on the thing. Had to rebuild the wetside once. Went ahead and picked up a second wetside assembly for it when I bought the wetside repair kit. It's been running 24/7 since the day I put it in the tank. I've abused the tar out of it. Once in a great great while I'll switch out wetsides and to clean the one that's been in the tank. I've treated it like a red-headed stepchild. And, after 5 years, it has stopped working. I'm getting ready to send it off to Ecotech to see if it's something simple, but my guess is the dryside is shot. If that's the case, I'll have to decide if I want to replace it or not. I probably will, since I just added the WXM module to my Apex. But, if I do, I know that it'll be an upgrade over the original white box since Ecotech has continued to try to keep improving their equipment. AND.... It'll only cost me 350 this time around, not 525. Which I feel is a fair price for the pump. (Thank you Jebao)
As far as the my Gyre 150, I absolutely LOVE it. Knock on wood, but about a year in, and no problems .... besides the ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS price I had to pay for what is basically a plastic squirrel cage coupled with cutting-edge controllability OF THE 1990's! Gimme a break, Maxspect. What on earth in/about this thing can justify the price? This pill would be a little easier to swallow is if it came with a complete set of varying control options right out of the box (like the vortech. Or the jebao, which is probably manufactured IN THE FACTORY NEXT DOOR to Maxspect.) But, nope. I have drop almost half the price of the Gyre again for an aftermarket box that has to be connected to a $500+ controller IF I want to slow it down at night (and, unfortunately, I do). All this because they felt they really didn't need to include the extra 5 bucks worth of plastic and circuits with their pump. (Sheesh!)
Will I buy another vortech? Probably. I definitely feel more comfortable with today's prices. If I get another 40, I'll have two extra wetsides for it (I think- I hope the wetsides haven't changed). Or I can get a 60 for not much more than I paid for a 40 five years ago.
Will I buy another Gyre? Probably. Though I will wait a while to see if the jebaos gives Maxspect a swift kick in their complacency. Adjust the price. Or wake up and offer controls that are at least minimally updated to what is pretty much the industry standard. (Hopefully both)
Will I ever buy another jebao? I like the flow from the heads. And I would really like to try out having some oscillating powerheads in the tank one day. I think that type of flow would be ideal for that application. When that day does come, I'll buy some Tunzes.
Sorry for the rant.

 

[TomatoSauceTy]

Allowed? Perhaps. What does it add to the conversation at hand? You expressed your opinion and then decided you wanted to disparage the people with the opposite opinion. That has no place on this forum, lounge or otherwise, in my opinion.

We always profess that we are responsible stewards of the pieces of the ocean we look after and that we should be afforded the right for our hobby to continue to draw from our oceans. Why then do we allow this type of activity to continue unimpeded? Why don't we as a group stand up against these types of profiteering?

Enlighten me.

 

[TheEngineer]

@tigé21v I think you make perfectly valid points. Not sure anyone would actually implement a trial program, but it would be nice :) I think the conversation about what manufacturers do and don't include in their products is a topic for a different thread, but I tend to agree with your sentiment. Competition breeds innovation, but only on a level playing field. Maxspect came out with a pump that did most of the things people used Vortechs for and what happened? Ecotech dropped their price.

Enlighten me.

Have you read the thread? The thoughts expressed should give you a fuller understanding of the opinions on both sides of the topic.