Are pride and hard work dead?

Just my 2 cents, but how is the hobby to keep growing if the younger people who will be the future hobbyists can't afford to get into it because they can't afford to spend $300 dollars on a pump or $500 on a light fixture?

Without new blood this will become a stale hobby without innovation and creativity. Maybe it stops someone who could have made a major breakthrough from doing just that because they couldn't afford to start out.

It's hard to be a part time capitalist. You are either for a free market system or you're not. This shouldn't be an elitist hobby. It should be open to anyone who wants to enjoy what we are so passionate about. These "innovative" companies with their breakthrough products need to take a long hard look at the global marketplace. Outsourcing is a way of life and has been for years. They can't make all their profits solely on the backs of their customers. They need to have some responsibility on controlling their costs as well.

And BTW besides the recovery of R&D does anyone really know what the profit margin on some of this overpriced equipment really is? I bet it would astound everyone.

Someone in an earlier post mentioned the Hyundai as an example. I totally agree. Personally I found it hard to buy a new BMW when I can get much more car by buying a Kia. I have both currently and yes I know they drive differently but I gotta tell you the BMW doesn't even offer some of the amenities at any price that the Kia comes with as standard equipment. Not to mention the quality and cost of ownership.

Hard to feel sorry for these companies when you see some of the prices they can get away with.

I will leave my rant on dime size frags for $400 for another post. I guess this was more like a 50 dollar speech rather than a 2 cent rant. Thanks for listening and I hope I haven't offended anyone's sense abilities.

There is no law saying you have to use $300 to $500 Power Heads.

I have 6 Tanks (5 have Koralias and I just bought my First set of Vortechs for the 6th Tank a couple month ago).

I have been using Koralias for 6 Years and guess what my Corals didn't die because of it.

Yes, expensive Power Heads are nice and helpful but they are definetly definetly NOT REQUIRED to keep Coral.

And you mention younger people not entering the hobby because of 300 to 500 dollar power heads.

Well, very very few people start this hobby buying that stuff.

Most buy cheaper ones like Koralias.

Then if they have success and are really passionate about it they may or may not upgrade to Higher End Power Heads down the road.
 
Well all I can say is that Jebao DC pumps and wave makers are only good for a year if anything. Both my DC pumps failed on me 2 weeks apart on both my tanks. Now I'm back to my trusty and reliable MagDrive pumps. The truth is that both DC pumps payed for themselves with the energy savings for the year but they could've wiped my tank out if I didn't have my back up pumps. That's a couple of hundreds in coral and fish. IT'S NOT WORTH IT! I'm starting to save my money for 2016 Black Friday sale now and plan on buying Ecotech everything. Lol

Well Said.

I agree 100 Percent.
 
In eany hobby that has a sudden increase in popularity there will be a new demand for cheaper products that do the same basic thing it allows the broker people to be able to enjoy this hobby I'm a full time collage student I can not spend 200 to $300 on pumps that I can get for 50 to $60 if have to drop out I work hard to keep my tank looking its beast and I buy the beast I can buy should I not be in this hobby cuz I cannot afford a $250 $300 $400 pump light skimmer etc ? there have been a lot of post lately bought how cheep we have become were not cheep we buy the beast we can afford

You do not need expensive pumps.

5 of my 6 Tanks use Koralias which start at like $20 to $30

Yes, the expensive stuff is better but it is not required.

Your Corals will not die because you do not have the best stuff out there.

There are people that have been reefing for 40 years on this site.

Have they been using Vortechs for the last 40 years?

I don't see how since Vortechs have been around for 10 years.

I know you are in college and money is tight.

When I was in your shoes in college as well I used Koralias and didn't have any problems.



P.S. where did all this talk saying you HAVE TO HAVE the most expensive equipment come from?

It wasn't like that when I started in this hobby that is for sure.
 
You do not need expensive pumps.

[...excellent points...]

P.S. where did all this talk saying you HAVE TO HAVE the most expensive equipment come from?

It wasn't like that when I started in this hobby that is for sure.

Come from? ...a sense of entitlement.

Just to pile on the sentiment... [emoji1]

...I started this hobby broke. (Familiar, anyone?)

It took literally a decade of collecting used equipment before I had the cash flow to even think about a budget for water and salt. Let alone a budget for non-used equipment.

I suppose I must've wanted to start a tank badly cuz in that decade I'd incessantly mooch rides to area reef shops from friends who could afford gas.

And I literally read every shred of aquarium related media in the university library. Twenty years worth of TFH magazine. Student theses. Everything. There weren't too many books there, but I was lucky that there was and independent book store that specialized in close out books where, over those years, I picked up over half of my aquarium book collection for almost-used prices.

ImageUploadedByREEF2REEF1452113018.554164.jpg

I also participated heavily in the Usenet *aquaria* forums over that time too.

I even kept inexpensive freshwater tanks in the intervening time so I could "get my feet wet". (Sorry about that. lol)

As I said I must have wanted to start a tank badly, but I don't remember those years as being without. I remember them being extremely fun and interesting.

In fairness, china wasn't so heavily involved back then so there were no (or very few) bottom of the line options.

Go figure.
 
In my experience Kessil has very Robust customer service.

Im curious about the bugs and in what way they failed to resolve.
 
MY views cane from having buckets of broken korilas that either wont fire or spin backwards and a closet full of sub par lights that kill corals slowly over about 9 months.

Water motion is water motion but lights are not the same....pumps arent the same either if they wind up on the sand bed or are constantly going out.

It would have been far far cheaper in the long run to have bought quality equipment in the first place than to deal with entey level stuff for 4 or 5 years before finally giving in so my position largely rests with the motivation of saving someone so much frustration they quit the hobby, or just stay chronically aggrivated from cutting corners and hopefully save their wallet in the long term.

If anyone WANTS cheap subpar equipment. ...cone visit my storage building, ...no scratch that, i wouldn't sabotage anyone by even GIVING that crap to them.....i use it as a back up-energency stock.
 
I've read very few of the posts on this thread as I have some opinions based on my years of experience in retail as it relates to what I see in our hobby. MAP pricing is something vendors in lots of industries introduced to protect pricing in local markets from threats online and in those "big box" stores that were so popular to open in the 90's and to protect the image of their boutique products. It's the reason Callaway golf clubs sell for the same price all over. Well, that's great. All the places that you can buy premium equipment sell it for the same price, so it doesn't matter who you buy it from, right? What does that mean to an LFS or BRS or whoever? It means that the customer receives no perceived advantage from shopping at one place over another, so things like shipping, shipping time, sales tax, and customer service come into play. When I call an online retailer with a problem or defect, 9 times out of 10, there is a replacement/fix on the way before I can even pack up the defective merchandise. This is the result of brisk competition. Taking it back to the store is going to be a process no matter who you are dealing with and depending on the person at the counter, you may not be able to get help at all and left to figure out how to contact a manufacturer that may even be in another country yourself. In addition, pricing on items not sold by those specific vendors with the HOT boutique equipment becomes a battleground where companies like "Amazon" are able to beat up on brick and mortar. Those issues aside, the greatest 'challenge' MAP pricing creates occurs when an under the radar account or wholesale account offers discounts that would likely get a normal account in hot water with the vendor. That creates a perception that the retailer following those rules may be sticking it to the buyer. That perception is not helped when local stores bump up livestock prices to cover the margins they aren't making on hard goods because they are being sold elsewhere at lower prices. Therefore, because customers believe (accurately or not) that pricing isn't totally on the up and up, they shop around; and try lower end equipment (like the entire aquarium aisle at almost all chain pet stores), and knockoffs, and used equipment, and all the other things that anyone who has ever just wandered by the aquarium section to "see if they have anything decent" at one of those big stores can identify with.
What's the solution? How many times have you dropped a hundred or three on a product that was of less than good quality? O rings that don't seal, pumps that don't pump, skimmers that don't skim, heaters that are neither accurate or reliable, the list goes on and on. Why is it too much to ask stores and vendors to provide quality at a decent price from the fish store we would all rather shop at anyway? What's better, a 25% margin on a guy that spends 5000 a year in your store, or a 40% margin on the livestock you sold him, the emergency heater he HAD to have that miunte, and the few knick-knacks that totaled up to 1500. OK, multiply that by 1000 customers and figure in the losses that are being taken daily on merchandise that sits and sits and sits on the shelves that could be turning over 3 times as quickly. TOO MANY small retailers are looking for a quick score on a purchase and think nothing of the bad taste in customers mouth the VERY FIRST TIME they realize they may have gotten hosed (doesn't matter if it's a 10 dollar item or one that costs 1000). At that point the seller has guaranteed that the customer will shop around with regard to every transaction from that moment forward(even impulse item sales suffer because they want to check prices elsewhere and then don't buy at all). As a boutique retail industry, it would behoove the folks that run it to strive to provide VALUE to their customers at each and every transaction. Nobody wants to buy something for more than it's worth or something that doesn't work. These products are so specialized that LOTS and LOTS of stores got away with outmoded business models and shady dealings for way longer than they were able to in other retail areas. Prohibitivley high pricing on items that are produced for lower relative manufacturing will create conditions favorable to a black market in counterfeit merchandise as well as the less neferious lower quality alternative market no matter what industry you're considering. All I got.
 
Well sure, but who makes a mass produced TRP operator .45 or performance center 8 Rd. 357?

Both are U.S. companies. The TRP runs $1,700 and the 627 runs $1,289. I own both.

But, does that make a stainless 686 total junk at half the price? if we were talking light rigs, it might....
 
Please send this message to Bobs Tropical Fish in Augusta Georgia and let them know that (in addition to ypur points) custoners would gladly pay MAP pricing for premium products if they would just stock premium products rather than junk jaebo and waveline stuff...or i should say in addition to. They finally started carrying Kessil at least.

There are 3 criteria that matter: form, function and reliability...and its not a "2 out of 3 ain't bad" proposition.

I've read very few of the posts on this thread as I have some opinions based on my years of experience in retail as it relates to what I see in our hobby. MAP pricing is something vendors in lots of industries introduced to protect pricing in local markets from threats online and in those "big box" stores that were so popular to open in the 90's and to protect the image of their boutique products. It's the reason Callaway golf clubs sell for the same price all over. Well, that's great. All the places that you can buy premium equipment sell it for the same price, so it doesn't matter who you buy it from, right? What does that mean to an LFS or BRS or whoever? It means that the customer receives no perceived advantage from shopping at one place over another, so things like shipping, shipping time, sales tax, and customer service come into play. When I call an online retailer with a problem or defect, 9 times out of 10, there is a replacement/fix on the way before I can even pack up the defective merchandise. This is the result of brisk competition. Taking it back to the store is going to be a process no matter who you are dealing with and depending on the person at the counter, you may not be able to get help at all and left to figure out how to contact a manufacturer that may even be in another country yourself. In addition, pricing on items not sold by those specific vendors with the HOT boutique equipment becomes a battleground where companies like "Amazon" are able to beat up on brick and mortar. Those issues aside, the greatest 'challenge' MAP pricing creates occurs when an under the radar account or wholesale account offers discounts that would likely get a normal account in hot water with the vendor. That creates a perception that the retailer following those rules may be sticking it to the buyer. That perception is not helped when local stores bump up livestock prices to cover the margins they aren't making on hard goods because they are being sold elsewhere at lower prices. Therefore, because customers believe (accurately or not) that pricing isn't totally on the up and up, they shop around; and try lower end equipment (like the entire aquarium aisle at almost all chain pet stores), and knockoffs, and used equipment, and all the other things that anyone who has ever just wandered by the aquarium section to "see if they have anything decent" at one of those big stores can identify with.
What's the solution? How many times have you dropped a hundred or three on a product that was of less than good quality? O rings that don't seal, pumps that don't pump, skimmers that don't skim, heaters that are neither accurate or reliable, the list goes on and on. Why is it too much to ask stores and vendors to provide quality at a decent price from the fish store we would all rather shop at anyway? What's better, a 25% margin on a guy that spends 5000 a year in your store, or a 40% margin on the livestock you sold him, the emergency heater he HAD to have that miunte, and the few knick-knacks that totaled up to 1500. OK, multiply that by 1000 customers and figure in the losses that are being taken daily on merchandise that sits and sits and sits on the shelves that could be turning over 3 times as quickly. TOO MANY small retailers are looking for a quick score on a purchase and think nothing of the bad taste in customers mouth the VERY FIRST TIME they realize they may have gotten hosed (doesn't matter if it's a 10 dollar item or one that costs 1000). At that point the seller has guaranteed that the customer will shop around with regard to every transaction from that moment forward(even impulse item sales suffer because they want to check prices elsewhere and then don't buy at all). As a boutique retail industry, it would behoove the folks that run it to strive to provide VALUE to their customers at each and every transaction. Nobody wants to buy something for more than it's worth or something that doesn't work. These products are so specialized that LOTS and LOTS of stores got away with outmoded business models and shady dealings for way longer than they were able to in other retail areas. Prohibitivley high pricing on items that are produced for lower relative manufacturing will create conditions favorable to a black market in counterfeit merchandise as well as the less neferious lower quality alternative market no matter what industry you're considering. All I got.
 
Please send this message to Bobs Tropical Fish in Augusta Georgia and let them know that (in addition to ypur points) custoners would gladly pay MAP pricing for premium products if they would just stock premium products rather than junk jaebo and waveline stuff...or i should say in addition to. They finally started carrying Kessil at least.

There are 3 criteria that matter: form, function and reliability...and its not a "2 out of 3 ain't bad" proposition.

I totally agree with the sentiment, but you also have to look at it from the shop owners point of view.

You are essentially expecting them to place a bet on you, me and our cheapo friends to go in there and buy the premium stuff. If we don't, they lose the bet.

Along with that the LFS probably has lots of experience indicating that people are cheap. This does not encourage risk taking inventory behavior.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing it - they should. I'm just saying we need to be more encouraging.
 
Quiz question: you go into your local fish store and drop two grand on a set of AI or Radeon's.

How much do you think the local fish store makes on that sale?

Next question: How many of those sales do you think your local fish store can make in the span of one quarter, or a year?
 
Wild Guess: 10% with 2 or 3 units a quarter.

ECOTECH, Neptune, Aqua Illumination, and skimmers from reef octopus, aquamax etc along with pumps and ATO units from tunze are virtually guaranteed to sell....even if they only move a couple units a quarter. ..although around the holidays i suspect they would move double or triple.

They move a ton of high priced corals and i find it hard to believe they are selling all those corals to customers with petsmart tanks and hydro pumps......if they are, my faith in the intelligence of humanity is lost.

Quiz question: you go into your local fish store and drop two grand on a set of AI or Radeon's.

How much do you think the local fish store makes on that sale?

Next question: How many of those sales do you think your local fish store can make in the span of one quarter, or a year?
 
Wild Guess: 10% with 2 or 3 units a quarter.

ECOTECH, Neptune, Aqua Illumination, and skimmers from reef octopus, aquamax etc along with pumps and ATO units from tunze are virtually guaranteed to sell....even if they only move a couple units a quarter. ..although around the holidays i suspect they would move double or triple.

They move a ton of high priced corals and i find it hard to believe they are selling all those corals to customers with petsmart tanks and hydro pumps......if they are, my faith in the intelligence of humanity is lost.

My petco location corals make me cry. They are all in horrible condition in the frag tank. They are overpriced and I can google and find them cheaper online by half. Plus the water they have is 340ppm calcium, i tested it after I got some snails out of the bottom of the frag tank that came with the water. My Petco also sells NO BOOKS on pets in the store. You would think a petstore would carry books on pets. *facepalm*

They sell hermit crabs, but extra shells have been out of stock for over a month. One tank had a blue tang with either velvet or ick and they just left it in the tank. Rotting fish sit in the tank sometimes all day, or longer if they die.

Sorry Petco is a horrible pet store, that I use sparingly. 90% of stuff I have ordered online. They don't even sell live foods like copepods unless you special order them.

-----
I am willing to pay a premium on products if I get good service, in a good atmosphere. Petco is like a walmart with live products. When it should be more like a Barnes and Noble. If anyone considers making a pet store they need to ditch the walmart vibe and upscale the location.
 
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Quiz question: you go into your local fish store and drop two grand on a set of AI or Radeon's.

How much do you think the local fish store makes on that sale?

Next question: How many of those sales do you think your local fish store can make in the span of one quarter, or a year?

It's not "that sale" that is important to the long term success of the business. However, regardless of the profit on that one item, Ecotech is strict on pricing. I'm not here to debate Ecotech's pricing policy.
In most sectors, MAP means the merchant's price is either what they say, or you lose your account if they choose to catch you. That is the issue. If Bill's AquaPests sells 12 fixtures a year and give their retail customer a good guy deal because he's buying a tank or whatever, chances are very low that Illuminacho gets a complaint and somehow punishes Bill's place. If, God forbid, Wal-Marine, violates MAP, then it's a big deal and everybody will expect to be able to do the same thing. What about the store that sells 100 or 150 a year (arbitrary numbers)? They can't give a wink and a nod to gain a customer or to firm up a big sale on items, but they can lose the sale with the same pricing on the one item and some sort of cheaper alternative (like say a quality in house brand of additives made by an internet retailer for example) available somewhere other than the LFS. MAP is all about the manufacturer.
 
I know that came off like I was talking about Ecotech. Everything after those first two sentences was purely an example. I don't know enough about them to know specifics about their policies. I love my lights too!!!!! I wouldn't have even said anything, but I have felt time and time again that compared to other consumer grade products, stuff for my aquariums just comes up short more than I would care for. Like if you bought that Hyudai, you may not expect a BMW, but you'd still be ticked if you didn't get to work because it just stopped dead, forever, one day 2 months after the warranty ran out.
 
I am just going to stick with the companies that originally made the product and this is why, I just sent my two radions to be fixed by ecotech marine (hardware fix). Not only did they fix them for free and eat the return shipping... They gave me a free fragging tool (bonecutters) which sell for $40 on their website!!!!!!!
Go go go Ecotech! They have the best customer service imo
 
Very interesting and telling comments from all sections of our country. Basically we are looking at a microcosm of our political system and its telling us how polarized this country really is. The only difference is at least on this forum must of us are civil.

The bottom line is that whether you call IP theft or just being competitive it will continue to happen. Just because an industry is small does not give the manufacturers the right to inflate prices to make up for lack of quantity. As said before, build different models to accommodate all sections. Diversify your product line. If your customers are paying a premium as opposed to cheap imports you better bring a quality product to market and not a beta model with faulty wiring or experimental parts.

Customers who pay premium dollars deserve premium service. Not hassles no matter how good your CS department is, it's a hassle to deal with. Take a lesson from the Amazon no matter what you think about them they make everything easy. What about free shipping both ways for repairs. What about a gift certificate or a discount on your next purchase. There are plenty of ways to give incentives to those customers.
As for the Jebaos of the world- there will always be room for them and they do a service by letting new hobbyist into our hobby who might have been put off before.
After gaining some experience every individual will then make their own decision on what they think is the appropriate amount to spend on equipment and such.
After all the equipment just moves water, provides light and does other necessary things to take care of what's really the important aspect. That is our livestock.

Does anyone know of a thread that traces the history of how the hobby went from trading frags to buying 1 inch frags for upwards of $1000?

I can't be the only one that thinks paying 20 or 30 dollars a polyp for a Zoa is nuts. I would appreciate some clue as how this happened. Thanks
 
Wild Guess: 10% with 2 or 3 units a quarter.[...]

Sounds like a reasonable guess, tho 2-3 a quarter is quite optimistic. Could just as likely be a whole year's sales.

Follow Up Question:

Either way you prefer, what does that amount to in yearly income, after taxes?
 
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