Are pride and hard work dead?

[mcarroll]

My understanding was that most LFS made there money through their maintenance accounts... At least that's what I've read in all the postings about wanting to start a lfs.

No doubt that is one avenue most are exploiting, but there are no guarantees there either. Sales are much harder to come by but good if you can get them… Just like everything else I guess. Takes extra capital, extra insurance, and you have to be away from the shop to do it. So it implies employees as well. No magic bullets, just more hard work.

 

[mcarroll]

10% margins are awful. I hope that isnt right.

I don't know how long you have been around the hobby, but we used to have literally dozens of aquarium shops in my area.

We are down to about four.

A friend of mine used to say: "Wish in one hand, **** in the other. See which fills up first." [emoji6][emoji1]. Sort of fits.

 

[TheEngineer]

Yeah but that is here not China.

The Chinese will read that and never come to the U.S. and stay in China.

We can't do anything about that.

So this Bust does nothing but let the Chinese Knockoff Companies know not to Visit the U.S.

I'm not sure what you mean. The products we are talking about are Chinese knockoffs. We can do plenty about it, we just don't.

 

[TheEngineer]

I don't know how long you have been around the hobby, but we used to have literally dozens of aquarium shops in my area.

We are down to about four.

A friend of mine used to say: "Wish in one hand, **** in the other. See which fills up first." [emoji6][emoji1]. Sort of fits.

Over 20 years in the hobby. We have most of the same stores still open around here although they may have changed hands. Dozens of shops sounds like the market was oversaturated. I don't think margins is what kills that. It might be a factor though.

 

[SteveySingle]

raise your hand if you think coralvue brings in more GP than Jebao despite their copying of products

 

[TheEngineer]

raise your hand if you think coralvue brings in more GP than Jebao despite their copying of products

I don't understand what GP is and what CoralVue has to do with it.

 

[SteveySingle]

[QUOTE="icecool2, post: 2666927, member: 19195"]I don't understand what GP is and what CoralVue has to do with it.[/QUOTE]
Oohhh, I see..

 

[Newb73]

Coralvue brought us the 1st gen DC pumps that shared the motor housing with jaebo and waveline.

Difference was coral vue honored their warranties and provided rapid cuatomer sercice (Thank you Chris).

I am not sure exactly where Maxspect manufacturers but Carlos and gang are also extremely reliable and helped me out with my Gyre which was user error.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I'm not sure what you mean. The products we are talking about are Chinese knockoffs. We can do plenty about it, we just don't.

What I mean is the Laws only apply here.

A company came to America and we went after them.

We cannot invade China going after Counterfeiters.

And the Chinese government does not even care so they will not help.

I am told they actually encourage counterfeiting.

So as long as they stay in China we cannot stop it.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Over 20 years in the hobby. We have most of the same stores still open around here although they may have changed hands. Dozens of shops sounds like the market was oversaturated. I don't think margins is what kills that. It might be a factor though.

There are less stores here as well than there were in the past.

And Most of the ones that are still around have gone downhill (I have seen some stores that have 10 Percent of the Number of Corals that they had just 3 Years ago. And that 10 Percent is much much lower in quality too. Nice Corals have been replaced with bland Xenia and other Ugly Corals).

And it seems that if you have the guts to open an LFS (I really really don't recommend it) you last 6-12 Months and Go Out of Business.

You just can't compete with the Internet.

 

[ZoaReefer]

Interesting thread.

To me, people who misunderstand how markets really work are the ones frustrated all the time.

The seller shouldn't be placing expectations on the behavior of the buyer, and the buyer shouldn't be placing expectations on the seller. What I mean by this is, you don't tell me how to run my business, and I don't tell you you should buy from me just because I worked really hard on my product, and joeblow down the street is selling a similar thing for cheaper.

There is a difference between hard work and value.
And the value of a high-end powerhead may not have the same reality attached to it that a Yeti cooler has. Yeti is really, really hard to copy, and delivers on the promises. Therein lies it's value. Try building a one-piece metal box with an internal vacuum.
But I can solder certain boards to certain resisters to certain LEDs and re-create a Kessil, because their components are the same things available to every tom, rick, and harry.

The truth, that might hurt, is that it's the free market that decides what has value and what does not, and it isn't interested in how hard the work was or a person's pride.
But those things that are high in free-market value were not invented without hard work, and are very rewarding.

Competition doesn't only help make things affordable, it drives more innovation and prevents laziness because guess what? It's gonna take some hard work to make something that is not only better than the competition, but is hard to replicate.

Monopolies and protectionism is the last thing we need. It takes two to make a market, a buyer and a seller. Without the buyer, the seller will get pretty lonely.

So, I don't think pride and hard work are dead, they just need to out-innovate the competition.

 

[TheEngineer]

What I mean is the Laws only apply here.

A company came to America and we went after them.

We cannot invade China going after Counterfeiters.

And the Chinese government does not even care so they will not help.

I am told they actually encourage counterfeiting.

So as long as they stay in China we cannot stop it.

Ah, yes. Agreed. I don't know about the encouraging part, but there doesn't seem to be much effort to stop it.

 

[TheEngineer]

But I can solder certain boards to certain resisters to certain LEDs and re-create a Kessil, because their components are the same things available to every tom, rick, and harry.

You can't replicate a Kessil unless you can manufacture your own LEDs. You CAN replicate its design though. If you do and that product is inferior to the real one it hurts the reputation of the real product. People don't look for names on products all the time, especially when the shape is distinctive.

Competition doesn't only help make things affordable, it drives more innovation and prevents laziness because guess what? It's gonna take some hard work to make something that is not only better than the competition, but is hard to replicate.

Making something hard to replicate is not a design consideration nor should it be, in my opinion. Patents protect the most basic to the most complex. Is a mouse trap hard to replicate? No, but the first one sure was novel. Don't you think they deserve the right to be the only one selling it if they invented it?

So, I don't think pride and hard work are dead, they just need to out-innovate the competition.

True, but how can we justify the expense of innovation if we allow copies of our work to take profits from us? If I spend $100k developing a product and then sell it for $500 making $100 in profit on each, I need to sell 1000 of them to make back my costs of development alone and I haven't made a cent. Now if a company copies it for $1k and sells it for $50 making $20 profit each, they only have to sell 50 of them. Now compound that with a limited market of say 10,000 people. Boy would it be hard for me to get the market share I need to cover my costs. It also looks like a lucrative reason to copy someone's work, right? Also all the more reason we need strong controls to prevent this kind of theft.

 

[ZoaReefer]

Therein lies the reason for the patent system, which badly needs reformed. A person should be able to make back their investment, but the patent must also expire after the profit period to allow competition.
Telling people you're paying scientists $20 billion for research is pretty hard to believe, and I exaggerate to make the point, but if you look at pharmaceuticals, it's a small exaggeration.

If someone want's to risk money a cheap look-a-like, why should they be stopped from buying it, and with what justification?
Apparently, they didn't want the best, so who are we to tell them they can't do that?

 

[jan4scuba]

That's a choice the mfg makes when they decide to build. He has to know the size of the mkt not to mention they should be forecasting sales. If you stick with your numbers he's nuts to get involved. By now everyone knows the knockoffs will be there to cut into his sales. If he didn't factor that in shame on them. Business is simple. Don't make it if you can't make money or get something else tangible out of it as in creating a total line of products and a following for all of it and not just a loss leader. And yet new products keep coming out and the technology keeps getting better letting us the hobbyists do more and more new and exciting things.
NOW IF WE CAN JUST KNOCK OFF BEAUTIFUL CORALS CHEAPLY IT WOULD ALL FALL IN PLACE. LOL.

 

[Newb73]

Conversation is starting to circle.

If you dont carry the products in the first place you can't compete. I would prefer to have bought those itens from the lfs to support them but they sabotage themselves when they dont even try.

There are less stores here as well than there were in the past.

And Most of the ones that are still around have gone downhill (I have seen some stores that have 10 Percent of the Number of Corals that they had just 3 Years ago. And that 10 Percent is much much lower in quality too. Nice Corals have been replaced with bland Xenia and other Ugly Corals).

And it seems that if you have the guts to open an LFS (I really really don't recommend it) you last 6-12 Months and Go Out of Business.

You just can't compete with the Internet.

 

[Newb73]

No, those components are not the same. The knock offs are manufactured with higher toletances, higher failure rates, worse QC and using sub par materials at every option.

Im nit saying they wont work as well, i am saying the can and do fail after a shorter lifespan and at a higher rate closer to the warranty period.

Interesting thread.

To me, people who misunderstand how markets really work are the ones frustrated all the time.

The seller shouldn't be placing expectations on the behavior of the buyer, and the buyer shouldn't be placing expectations on the seller. What I mean by this is, you don't tell me how to run my business, and I don't tell you you should buy from me just because I worked really hard on my product, and joeblow down the street is selling a similar thing for cheaper.

There is a difference between hard work and value.
And the value of a high-end powerhead may not have the same reality attached to it that a Yeti cooler has. Yeti is really, really hard to copy, and delivers on the promises. Therein lies it's value. Try building a one-piece metal box with an internal vacuum.
But I can solder certain boards to certain resisters to certain LEDs and re-create a Kessil, because their components are the same things available to every tom, rick, and harry.

The truth, that might hurt, is that it's the free market that decides what has value and what does not, and it isn't interested in how hard the work was or a person's pride.
But those things that are high in free-market value were not invented without hard work, and are very rewarding.

Competition doesn't only help make things affordable, it drives more innovation and prevents laziness because guess what? It's gonna take some hard work to make something that is not only better than the competition, but is hard to replicate.

Monopolies and protectionism is the last thing we need. It takes two to make a market, a buyer and a seller. Without the buyer, the seller will get pretty lonely.

So, I don't think pride and hard work are dead, they just need to out-innovate the competition.

 

[Harry_Y]

I don't buy from those who blatantly copy others.

I try to by quality items because I like things to last.

 

[TheEngineer]

Therein lies the reason for the patent system, which badly needs reformed. A person should be able to make back their investment, but the patent must also expire after the profit period to allow competition.
Telling people you're paying scientists $20 billion for research is pretty hard to believe, and I exaggerate to make the point, but if you look at pharmaceuticals, it's a small exaggeration.

If someone want's to risk money a cheap look-a-like, why should they be stopped from buying it, and with what justification?
Apparently, they didn't want the best, so who are we to tell them they can't do that?

A patent lasts for 15 years (depending on the type). Why should there be a limit on profit from a patent? That undermines the concept on which our economy is built. Pharmaceuticals cost a fortune to produce. A simple new medicine costs $3B+ to produce, I know this from professional experience. Their profits are a very different animal from what we are describing though. I don't want to focus too much on profit itself, I think it takes away from the real topic of counterfeit products. Yes profit is a factor, but not the one I want to discuss.

No one should be stopped from buying a product, regardless of cost, if that product was developed honestly. If it is a counterfeit, I don't care if it is $1 or $1M it shouldn't be sold.

 

[TheEngineer]

That's a choice the mfg makes when they decide to build. He has to know the size of the mkt not to mention they should be forecasting sales. If you stick with your numbers he's nuts to get involved. By now everyone knows the knockoffs will be there to cut into his sales. If he didn't factor that in shame on them. Business is simple. Don't make it if you can't make money or get something else tangible out of it as in creating a total line of products and a following for all of it and not just a loss leader. And yet new products keep coming out and the technology keeps getting better letting us the hobbyists do more and more new and exciting things.
NOW IF WE CAN JUST KNOCK OFF BEAUTIFUL CORALS CHEAPLY IT WOULD ALL FALL IN PLACE. LOL.

My example wasn't meant to focus on market share, rather illustrate we are in a constrained market. Don't make it if you can't make money? How are you expected to make money when someone steals it from you? It would be nice if it was so simple. It isn't.