Are pride and hard work dead?

[TheEngineer]

Thats not how I ment it I'm not geting bashed personally I'm saying people who donot have the budget to buy the really nice things or buy full colonies instead of a bunch of frags get bashed for it there several post in this thread and several threads about that subject

I can't say I've seen that happen. I've seen people say this is an expensive hobby or the like, but never denegrate someone who reefs on a budget.

 

[Paul B]

I could reply to some of the markups but you have to understand the fact that price is determined by many factors. R&D, labor, insurance, shipping, manufacturing cost per item (overhead) and includes the estimated number of units you can sell per year or business cycle. Our hobby is not a wide spread industry and therefore does not command the same economies of scale as other industries. Some long term players like Tunze and Eheim are closer to the testing and development of long term products simply because of the German mindset of making long lasting products.
Now lets address the cost of equipment. In many cases I have noticed that the hobbyist is much like a fisherman. In a sporting goods store most of the lures are designed to catch fishermen and not fish. .

The above is only part of a quote:
I also have 2 cents to add. I myself have two aquarium related patents so I know a little about aquarium related sales. My second patent cost me about $30,000.00 all together. If they don't grant you a patent (and 98% of patent applications do not get granted) it would still cost you about $25,000.00.
You have to lay that out and it is mostly lawyers fees. Then if you want to market the thing you need to have molds built. A tiny mold like the top of a pen is about $3,000.00 to make. Then you search all over for a manufacturer. That is not easy because I am a Veteran and want "everything" made in the US. That is impossible because very little is made here no matter how much you are willing to spend. We just don't have the manufacturing here and for something like a marine aquarium related item, you will never sell enough units to start a factory like General Motors would do.
My device is mostly built in America as much as possible. China or India would love to build the thing but I won't do it. Even if I did, it would only drop the cost about $3.00 out of the $112.00 or so it costs. Virtually everything I buy is made in America "If there is such a thing". Today my wife and I went shopping. We wanted grapes and pistachio's but the grapes were from Chili and the pistachio's were from Israel. So this week we don't have grapes and pistachio's. We also wanted scallops, but they were from China as was the flounder, so I got American calamari, and that is what we are eating tonight.
Getting back to manufacturing. The inventor, or in this case, me, makes very little from the sale of something as most of it goes to parts, manufacturing, wholesaling, insurance, packaging and shipping. Out of that $120.00. I think I get $4.00. Last year our manufacturer in Florida raised our costs by a significant amount so if we didn't raise our price, It would actually cost me money for each unit we sold.
As for quality. I want my device to work well for a few reasons. First of all I have a reputation but more important, it is warranted which means any one of them that fails, I either fix it or give you another one. I still have to pay for that other one so if a part fails, I take the thing apart and order a better made part, which is usually more money. Out of the 4 or so thousand we sold maybe 15 had some problem that we had to fix or exchange. That isn't bad but I do not build these things myself and the human in the factory is not infallible so mistakes happen. Out of all the repairs we made we have only had one customer complain, and that was after I repaired his unit twice and the warranty expired.
I did not invent anything because I thought I would make a bunch of money. For me it is a hobby and I figured I had an idea that could help with a problem.
I also wrote a book, and if I figured how much I earned from writing the book, it would probably come out to 10 cents an hour. We in this hobby don't do these things mainly for money. At least I don't. We do it for a love of the hobby and little else.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

What was the driver of the low margins for you? Cheap glass tanks?

High overhead cost and not enough volume to make the necessary income. In the Pacific Northwest we had about the same number of stores in 5 states as the Washington D.C-Baltimore area. Simple math was that the volume was not enough to support my self and employees. At a lower production level you should make about 2-4 times the cost of the material as a general mark up. Unless you have the volume or distribution it is difficult to make money and help the store make money as well.

Cheap glass tanks with 90 day or tail light warranties are also a problem to compete with. You have to charge what it takes to stay in business or make more tanks and sell for less per item. It is just the facts. Glass tanks had distribution in the same area so we had to compete by delivering on our own truck. That was a money looser after awhile. Glass is cheaper than acrylic no two ways about it. But the fabrication quality difference does not matter to many people. I love the aesthetics of a well made tank glass or acrylic...they do not sell for a dollar a gallon in any store though.

 

[that Reef Guy]

E="that Reef Guy, post: 2668217, member: 24159"]I didn't see anybody bashing you or anybody else for not having expensive pumps?

This post has me confused?

Thats not how I ment it I'm not geting bashed personally I'm saying people who donot have the budget to buy the really nice things or buy full colonies instead of a bunch of frags get bashed for it there several post in this thread and several threads about that subject[/QUOTE]

News to me.

I have never seen that anywhere.

Especially Colonies.

Corals are so expensive nowadays I never see anybody buying Colonies.

Actually I never even see Colonies for Sale. LOL.

People buy Frags.

Now they are calling them Micro Frags Last I Checked.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I can't say I've seen that happen. I've seen people say this is an expensive hobby or the like, but never denegrate someone who reefs on a budget.

I totally agree.

Can you post some Links to this?

 

[TomatoSauceTy]

The above is only part of a quote:
I also have 2 cents to add. I myself have two aquarium related patents so I know a little about aquarium related sales. My second patent cost me about $30,000.00 all together. If they don't grant you a patent (and 98% of patent applications do not get granted) it would still cost you about $25,000.00.
You have to lay that out and it is mostly lawyers fees. Then if you want to market the thing you need to have molds built. A tiny mold like the top of a pen is about $3,000.00 to make. Then you search all over for a manufacturer. That is not easy because I am a Veteran and want "everything" made in the US. That is impossible because very little is made here no matter how much you are willing to spend. We just don't have the manufacturing here and for something like a marine aquarium related item, you will never sell enough units to start a factory like General Motors would do.
My device is mostly built in America as much as possible. China or India would love to build the thing but I won't do it. Even if I did, it would only drop the cost about $3.00 out of the $112.00 or so it costs. Virtually everything I buy is made in America "If there is such a thing". Today my wife and I went shopping. We wanted grapes and pistachio's but the grapes were from Chili and the pistachio's were from Israel. So this week we don't have grapes and pistachio's. We also wanted scallops, but they were from China as was the flounder, so I got American calamari, and that is what we are eating tonight.
Getting back to manufacturing. The inventor, or in this case, me, makes very little from the sale of something as most of it goes to parts, manufacturing, wholesaling, insurance, packaging and shipping. Out of that $120.00. I think I get $4.00. Last year our manufacturer in Florida raised our costs by a significant amount so if we didn't raise our price, It would actually cost me money for each unit we sold.
As for quality. I want my device to work well for a few reasons. First of all I have a reputation but more important, it is warranted which means any one of them that fails, I either fix it or give you another one. I still have to pay for that other one so if a part fails, I take the thing apart and order a better made part, which is usually more money. Out of the 4 or so thousand we sold maybe 15 had some problem that we had to fix or exchange. That isn't bad but I do not build these things myself and the human in the factory is not infallible so mistakes happen. Out of all the repairs we made we have only had one customer complain, and that was after I repaired his unit twice and the warranty expired.
I did not invent anything because I thought I would make a bunch of money. For me it is a hobby and I figured I had an idea that could help with a problem.
I also wrote a book, and if I figured how much I earned from writing the book, it would probably come out to 10 cents an hour. We in this hobby don't do these things mainly for money. At least I don't. We do it for a love of the hobby and little else.

Why don't you offer your product for free if you were just trying to help out the hobby?

I find it hilarious this high road people take when it comes to China...you know that country that OUR country the US of A owes a hundred, a thousand, a million , a billion, A TRILLION DOLLARS?!

I'm glad you have an idea of respect, but don't you think you owe China some money for living in this great country of ours???

P.S. Quality Check.

And if shark tank taught me one thing... you're an inventor, get your butt out business.

 

[TheEngineer]

Desiring to keep production and jobs in one's own country is generally considered patriotic and viewed positively. It is interesting that you seem to take the opposite view @TomatoSauceTy. I don't want us to get off track talking politics of sovereign debt though.

 

[Tahoe61]

. I don't want us to get off track talking politics of sovereign debt though.

Yup, no good can come of that track, the topic always gets heated.



Just a reminder to others please no veiled use of profanity.

Thanks

 

[Paul B]

Why don't you offer your product for free if you were just trying to help out the hobby?

I find it hilarious this high road people take when it comes to China...you know that country that OUR country the US of A owes a hundred, a thousand, a million , a billion, A TRILLION DOLLARS?!

I'm glad you have an idea of respect, but don't you think you owe China some money for living in this great country of ours???

P.S. Quality Check.

And if shark tank taught me one thing... you're an inventor, get your *** out business.

I have devised many things in this hobby that I could sell but I just post them on these forums, I just wrote a book and half the book is things you can easily build for your tank. I could offer these things for sale but I "do it to help the hobby and try to keep some fish alive"
I don't need shark tank as my two inventions sell quite well. I was saying you make hardly anything because of overhead. In the 60 or so years I have been in this hobby I have never sold anything from my tank. I always gave stuff away for free. If a fish gets to big, I give it away. If I don't need a pump, I give it away. If I could afford to give my products away for free, I would, but the four dollars or so I make on each one is not exactly a windfall and I did say the patent cost about $30,000.00. I still had to pay for that.
I also said that some of the parts for my products do not come from America, some come from China and some from India. They do not make much here. As to owing anything to China, if everyone thought like me, we would not owe a hundred, billion, million dollars to anyone. I fought for America and I buy from America if there is such a thing. If we didn't buy from other places we would still be making those things here.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

To redirect this discussion the hobbist has the choice of how much to spend on this hobby. Dr. Eng did his tanks with natural sea water and an air pump with an air stone and natural sun light. Not to many ways cheaper than that! Observation and paying attention to the environment is a major key to success. Now you may have to limit the type of sea life you keep but the facts are you can enjoy this hobby with a limited budget and a limit on your consumption.

I admit that I am drawn to the more expensive high asthetic forms of aquarium keeping and it's related artistic expression. That said there plenty of people who are keeping a higher level of aquarium in terms of over all success and asthetics than I am and doing it for less.

Did'nt someone say "imitation is the higest form of flatery" or something to that effect? I guess as inventors and developers we should be flattered that the Chinese want to take our ideas. I have given away lots of innovation just by discussing my ideas openly. That discussion helps to sharpen what a customer or hobbist may actually want in a final product.

Now back to bashing those who steal and copy patented ideas of hard earned intelectual property. Let's stop fighting each other and fight to support those that innovate and develop. Same goes for the political discussion...it is time to understand this phrase in this country "United we stand, Divided we fall".

 

[Brandon Donaldson]

[QUits E="icecool2, post: 2680098, member: 19195"]I can't say I've seen that happen. I've seen people say this is an expensive hobby or the like, but

I totally agree.

Can you post some Links to this?

It was In a sps post I cannot find it it was basically saying that people in the hobby are cheep and how if were not willing to spend the money than we should never start in the first place so I was fired up about that post then I read some stuff in a deferment form along the same lines and there were some post in this thread but not bad ones I was out of line and mad did not think nore reed feather in the post I agree that I was not right and off topic I should of started a new thread and not gone off on this one I am sory

 

[TheEngineer]

No harm, no foul. Emotions flare about things we are passionate about.

 

[runzwithscissors]

,

 

[TheEngineer]

Viewed positively I agree with. The second part has nothing to do with being patriotic. The only ones bringing politics in are the flag wavers. I fought for this country, and I fought for everyone's right to purchase what you want no matter where it came.

I buy vegetables and fruits from other countries because they may not be in season here. Same reason other countries buy our produce when it's out of season for them

I have the right not to spend 30k on a patent I know will never pay for itself.

I have the right to purchase products from communist supported countries as long as the law allows it.

I have the right to ignore the myopic visions of others that cannot grasp the concept of global economics.

I have the right to display my Purple Heart whenever I want.

I am glad that because of my sacrifices as well as others, you have the right to voice your opinion.

Sometimes, I regret.

I don't understand how this relates to the conversation. You feel a vision where buying products from those who invented them and have the right to solely profit from them to be myopic? What is the longer vision then?

Patriotism is devotion to and support of one's country. What isn't patriotic about sourcing products from your country?

The purchase of goods from other countries is not the subject of discussion. The subject is purchasing products which are unapproved replicas of other products. Two of the products under discussion Maxspect Gyre and Jebao Jecod are both Chinese products.

A banana from Chile is hardly the same as a piece of hardware in my view.

As to an understanding of global economics, I can say I am far from lacking in this domain. I'm not sure why if you feel you can ignore such discussions you chose not to.

Opinions are welcome. Your comment seems to be summed up that you don't agree. You don't need to make thinly veiled insults to say that.

 

[runzwithscissors]

This was in response to the "application" for a patent that has not been issued.

It doesn't make anyone patriotic to boycott products from other countries because of a perceived idea that there is a patent infringement.

Unapproved replicas? Read the patent app. It is what the pumps do, not the design that is being challenged by a lawyer. Once again, it is a utility patent application. NOT a design patent.

The reference to produce was in response to Paul's post. Forgive me for not quoting that entire post.

For the record, there was no insult intended. In fact, before you responded I had deleted my post. I'm aware that I don't walk on water.

 

[TheEngineer]

The reference to produce was in response to Paul's post. Forgive me for not quoting that entire post.

For the record, there was no insult intended. In fact, before you responded I had deleted my post. I'm aware that I don't walk on water.

Hard to follow with so many contributors if you don't quote who you are responding to.

 

[Paul B]

Runzwithsissors. Thank you for your service. Maybe we served together. I was in the First Cav, Nam and Cambodia. My comment about not buying foreign goods is not all inclusive. Of course I have to buy foreign goods but if there is an American alternative, I would rather support an American. I have no problem with Israel or Chili, but if I have a choice, I buy American. We usually don't have a choice. For fish tank pumps and most tools there is no choice. They are all made someplace else. When I was issued my patent there was a Chinese knock off sold here for less money. It was a cheap knock off and some of those units went on fire, he is out of business. And I did make my $30,000.00 back for the patent, it just took a couple of years. Have a great day

 

[BryanD]

People whose hobby has expanded and are selling frags out of their garage aren't doing anything wrong. Many, many businesses in the Good Ole USA started out that way. As for supporting a LFS, I will, but I won't be ripped off doing it. Perfect example, last January (2014) my family and I decided we were going to add a couple of fish to my tank. We stopped at PetCo first because it was right off the expressway, not my first choice but over the years I've gotten some very nice fish (fresh and salt) from there and since I diligently quarantine, I don't worry about pests or condition, I take care of that before it goes in the DT. My stepson wanted a black clown. PetCo-$25. I said OK, but lets check out the 3 other stores, more Mom and Pop places. First place, same fish, actually not in as good a condition, smaller, $45. Next place, same fish, same condition and size, $60. Third place, same fish, slightly bigger, decent condition, $55. Went back to PetCo, that fish and the other one bought there (royal dottyback) are happy, healthy, and growing. I've been in this hobby for 36 years, and have seen the prices of livestock and equipment, even the basic stuff, go nuts in LFS's. You shouldn't have to be rich to enjoy this hobby and I will reward the people that make that possible.

 

[reefjerk]

Mmmm.....Henry Ford made the first car. People copied him. IMHO other people who make a similar product reduces the costs for all of us.

Wow this is so wrong I spit out my coffee.
Henry Ford certainly DID NOT make the first car, why do Americans think they invented everything?
Chances are, whatever you are looking at was invented by a German a decades earlier.
The Benz Patent Motorwagen was the first "modern" car revealed in 1886!

In 1803 Richard Trevithick invented the London Steam Carriage, a hundred years before ford started making them.

Henry Ford is credited for his assembly line, that is all, the never have made a nice car let alone invent anything. Ford is king of copying the style of their competitors cars that out sell them.

Here is another secret, America did not land a man on the moon, it was the Germans.

 

[TheEngineer]

Wow this is so wrong I spit out my coffee.
Henry Ford certainly DID NOT make the first car, why do Americans think they invented everything?
Chances are, whatever you are looking at was invented by a German a decades earlier.
The Benz Patent Motorwagen was the first "modern" car revealed in 1886!

In 1803 Richard Trevithick invented the London Steam Carriage, a hundred years before ford started making them.

Henry Ford is credited for his assembly line, that is all, the never have made a nice car let alone invent anything. Ford is king of copying the style of their competitors cars that out sell them.

Here is another secret, America did not land a man on the moon, it was the Germans.

If you read further you would have seen someone already corrected that statement. Let's not start with bashing an entire nationality of people because you don't like a comment someone made.