Are really stringy white poops a sign of internal parasites or is it a myth?

[MnFish1]

I Would agree with you but for the very first point Lasse makes stating in fact that white stringy poop (I cant believe what we are arguing lol...) is always a myth. Or for that matter the question asked in absolute terms with a premise that it’s either real or a myth and as I pointed out earlier the truth is in the middle but despite posting contrary arguments and studies we won’t really get anywhere and thus my comment re.beliefs etc.

Go back to page 1 or see below. I think it’s been proven many times in the last pages that it’s not (always) a myth but here we are arguing over and over. Then when called out, people get offended - sorry for my impatience but that gets old fast...and yeah we all have agendas etc etc lol

“In the disease part of the forum – it comes a lot of advises according handling stringy white poops that often show up when you buy a new fish. The general answer to this is that the fish have internal parasites – treat ASP and it is often recommended to treat with Metronidazole or its derivates. IMO – this is one of the more dangerous myths existing in the reefing community and in this short write up – I try to show why I have this standpoint”

But in the article he says this (which states that white poop alone should not prompt emergency treatment) - I think (he can say or not) that this was the major point or?:

If a SW fish show up all four indications of African bloat – shy, dark coloured, not eating or even interest of food and showing up a thin, stringy white pop – I would be considering to do a treatment with help of metronidazole – especially if the fish have been normal before. But knowing the effects of metronidazole on gut bacteria. I´ll be very, very carefully to use this drug. Even in low concentrations in the water because of uptake in the fish body.

 

[HotRocks]

@HotRocks So every fish that has white poop is now declared they have a disease or parasite? If one disproves your or others theory would that not entail a "myth" that all white poop means the fish needs medication for a parasite? How did our multiple clowns with white poop thrive without meds when they had white poop? What makes @Lasse findings any less important or credible than those who've studied something different??

What in the world are you talking about where did I say that??? Stop putting words in my mouth. Have you read the entire thread? I said fish that died and had white stringy poop had parasites present. I did not say and have never said that white stringy poop means a fish always has parasites. There is a difference here...

 

[EmdeReef]

@HotRocks So every fish that has white poop is now declared they have a disease or parasite? If one disproves your or others theory would that not entail a "myth" that all white poop means the fish needs medication for a parasite? How did our multiple clowns with white poop thrive without meds when they had white poop? What makes @Lasse findings any less important or credible than those who've studied something different??

A symptom does not always equal an illness, that’s very obvious. chest pain is not always a symptom of a heart attack but it could be. That’s why doctors look for other symptoms or run other tests. To say that chest pain as a potential symptom of a heart attack is a myth though is plain wrong...

Many fish can survive well with parasites and do so in nature and our tanks. As a matter of fact on fish farms the tests are run in intervals to measure a parasitic load, if the count is low and there is no presence of certain more deadly parasites there is no treatment prescribed. However, and you can google this, each category of parasitic load usually corresponds with a degree of stunted growth - in fish farm terms it means decreased average fish weight.

I can’t be sure, without killing and dissecting my fish that I don’t have fish with internal parasites. There are a few exemptions, some intestinal parasites will kill fish in days and because 99.9% of the people would struggle ID’ing or even be able to collect a sample the treatment is prescribed if a fish is not eating and/or has white stringy poop, other behavioral symptoms can be observed as well. Often times a single dose of metronidazole will “deworm” a fish so we all have to weigh the pros and cons...

 

[EmdeReef]

But in the article he says this (which states that white poop alone should not prompt emergency treatment) - I think (he can say or not) that this was the major point or?:

The truth again is somewhere in the middle. Perhaps it should prompt treatment...how can you tell?

If I stop feeding my fish for a week am I going to see white poop? I doubt it honestly but someone should perhaps try...

 

[Mortie31]

To be frank, I don’t see how my quote indicates that I don’t understand antibiotic resistance, nor that I don’t consider long-term ramifications.

I consider (and weigh more heavily in my view) long term existence, first. A dead fish isn’t resistant to a lot.

And that is the problem you completely miss the point, your so blasé about saying things like this:
“Despite taking antibiotics dozens of times in my life, I am quite healthy -- as are tens of millions of others.”
your views are so myopic and naive which I personally find scary, mainly because your list of badges implies knowledge, trust and authority. My old grandma always used to say to me “a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous, and lead the naive to places they shouldn’t go”

 

[MnFish1]

The truth again is somewhere in the middle. Perhaps it should prompt treatment...how can you tell?

If I stop feeding my fish for a week am I going to see white poop? I doubt it honestly but someone should perhaps try...

The fact is - I dont know. And the fact is (@Lasse can chime in) the point of this article is not that White stringy poop NEVER means parasites - but that it does not ALWAYS mean parasites. I do not understand the argument here. Of course he is correct. I guess the question could be 'whats the most likely cause' of white stringy poop? Does it depend on when the fish was shipped/arrived? Does it depend on the feed?

True story - my (NEW) Harliquin tusk had white poop - I fed medicated food - the day after - the tusk was fine - but the blue faced angel that looked great (but ate a bunch of food) was dead.... So - IDK

 

[MnFish1]

And that is the problem you completely miss the point, your so blasé about saying things like this:
“Despite taking antibiotics dozens of times in my life, I am quite healthy -- as are tens of millions of others.”
your views are so myopic and naive which I personally find scary, mainly because your list of badges implies knowledge, trust and authority. My old grandma always used to say to me “a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous, and lead the naive to places they shouldn’t go”

Don't ever mention the badges lol. JKJKJKJKJK

 

[Mortie31]

I said fish that died and had white stringy poop had parasites present.

Did the parasites kill the fish? Or was the cause of death not ascertained? 90% of men who die over the age of 80 will have prostate cancer, but in the vast majority it wasn’t the cancer that killed them

 

[MnFish1]

The truth again is somewhere in the middle. Perhaps it should prompt treatment...how can you tell?

If I stop feeding my fish for a week am I going to see white poop? I doubt it honestly but someone should perhaps try...

BTW - I think the key word is 'white poop alone'. Many people have said that fish can survive without feeding for a weeks vacation (i.e. that overfeeding is more dangerous than underfeeding). I would suggest that if a fish has 'white stringy poop' and looks fine - I would not panic and rush to a pharmacy for flagyl. Especially given the thread by @Brew12 suggesting that these medications may not be available that much longer. Seems to me wait for symptoms. I could be completely wrong - but - IMHO medication is the last resort - not the 'first resort'.

 

[HotRocks]

Did the parasites kill the fish? Or was the cause of death not ascertained? 90% of men who die over the age of 80 will have prostate cancer, but in the vast majority it wasn’t the cancer that killed them

Starvation probably killed the fish. The discomfort from the parasites probably caused them to stop eating.

 

[DSC reef]

What in the world are you talking about where did I say that??? Stop putting words in my mouth. Have you read the entire thread? I said fish that died and had white stringy poop had parasites present. I did not say and have never said that white stringy poop means a fish always has parasites. There is a difference here...

Um first off it was in question form, second I'm not putting words in your mouth and I was not aggressive in any way. You stated that people could be offended by calling their findings a myth but it can go both ways.

 

[EmdeReef]

BTW - I think the key word is 'white poop alone'. Many people have said that fish can survive without feeding for a weeks vacation (i.e. that overfeeding is more dangerous than underfeeding). I would suggest that if a fish has 'white stringy poop' and looks fine - I would not panic and rush to a pharmacy for flagyl. Especially given the thread by @Brew12 suggesting that these medications may not be available that much longer. Seems to me wait for symptoms. I could be completely wrong - but - IMHO medication is the last resort - not the 'first resort'.

I very rarely panic

I understand your points but as you know, that’s not how this thread has been framed or run...

 

[Mortie31]

Starvation probably killed the fish. The discomfort from the parasites probably caused them to stop eating.

Or could it be the medications it was given exasperated a situation further, that may of resolved itself if left in an observation tank and fed up slowly. We will never know and that’s the problem constantly discussed on these threads.

 

[HotRocks]

Um first off it was in question form, second I'm not putting words in your mouth and I was not aggressive in any way. You stated that people could be offended by calling their findings a myth but it can go both ways.

I'm not offended. I wasn't offended by your post either. I said no hard feelings. I was simply implying there are several passionate people here and if someone claims something is a myth that is debatable it's going to spark a discussion. Especially when they dedicate tons of time to helping others and doing research and providing info for the betterment of the hobby.

I don't care if people medicate their fish or not (it's up to them). If someone wants help with how to I'd gladly help them. My opinions of when meds should or shouldn't be added don't matter. I will do what I think is best for my fish, or whoever's fish I may have in my care, if someone asks what I'd do then I will gladly share.

 

[Mortie31]

My opinions of when meds should or shouldn't be added don't matter

But they do matter, because of the high esteem you held in, your opinions carry more weight than ordinary members, and therefore IMO need to be very considered, upto date and non- biased, which is why these debates challenging accepted methods and offering alternative view points are so important, new science may be uncovered, long term implications discussed as well as morality and your input and that of all the staff members and contributors etc is crucial, but your standpoint needs to be flexible and open to discussion IMO.

 

[Lasse]

@HotRocks Did you notice my question mark in the thread title?

I'm sorry to say that if Humble Fish identify parasites it is only representative for that sample.
And that's no insult - it is how science work. If you read one of my first links that deal with this flagelate infections you can see how difficult it is even for scientist to isolate these flagellates as disease causing agents. If you take a drop of your aquarium water and put that under a microscope - you will be surprised.

In my first post I mentioned that I was among the first in the world to adress this disease that we at that time 1977 named it Hexamita. Today it is called diplomonads.

If anyone read my whole writeup - even you @EmdeReef you can see that half the text is explaining the stringy white poop disease among cichlids and the work I did with this during l977. My conclusion was that at least two indications must fit in - not eating and this stringy white poop. Fish that eat and have the poop is not sick because the thin white stringy poop is because that the parasites make the fish not to eat. I have much more about this disease - species sensitivity (because of food preferences) I hope to come back with this information later.

But til that - all of you - stay on topic and do not discuss other things - it ment to all even those that try to defend me. In my mind - I see all offtopics as attempt to close the thread

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I don't have all of the answers, but I do think the preponderance of the science supports treatment of white, stringy poop in marine fish. I don't see enough evidence that 14 days of treatment has a worse impact on the fish than internal parasites.

Only my viewpoints. Not everyone need share.

This is not meant to be offensive - but sometimes this type of quote seems disingenuous - on one hand you say the preponderance of the science suggests treatment of white stringy poop (does it?) on the other hand you say its only your viewpoints. So - is it science? or is it your opinion?

 

[Victoria M]

I strongly disagree - the best reefers I know is those that use their own heads, valuate information together with their own observations and use patience, do not punch (yea I mean punch - not press ) the panic botton and use common sense. The worst? IMO - the reefers what without using their own heads slavishly following advises from people like me It is wise to take advises but in this hobby with living ecosystem (bad or good) it is impossible to give 100 % right advises. But patience, no rush, not using the sledgehammer to often and use your common sense are generally good advises

Sincerely Lasse

Well, Lasse I consider you all of those things. It has been demonstrated over and over again that you are a jack of all trades. A well educated and experienced hobbyist. This ain't stamp collecting, folks. XO

 

[MnFish1]

So then how do you propose determining whether or not it is a parasite or something else? Most hobbyists are not pulling out a microscope to examine the feces..

By the time other symptoms present themselves it is often too late.

Based on what? (that by the time other symptoms present it is often too late?) - its common wisdom that fish do fine without food for a week. At worst a parasite will take up SOME (not all) of the nutrients. I'm not sure how this is so hard to grasp. I at least think that the point is - just because you see some abnormal poop - you dont need to panic. If it persists - if the fish starts losing weight/etc - yeah - treat them - no one is disagreeing with this.

 

[EmdeReef]

@HotRocks Did you notice my question mark in the thread title?

I'm sorry to say that if Humble Fish identify parasites it is only representative for that sample.
And that's no insult - it is how science work. If you read one of my first links that deal with this flagelate infections you can see how difficult it is even for scientist to isolate these flagellates as disease causing agents. If you take a drop of your aquarium water and put that under a microscope - you will be surprised.

In my first post I mentioned that I was among the first in the world to adress this disease that we at that time 1977 named it Hexamita. Today it is called diplomonads.

If anyone read my whole writeup - even you @EmdeReef you can see that half the text is explaining the stringy white poop disease among cichlids and the work I did with this during l977. My conclusion was that at least two indications must fit in - not eating and this stringy white poop. Fish that eat and have the poop is not sick because the thin white stringy poop is because that the parasites make the fish not to eat. I have much more about this disease - species sensitivity (because of food preferences) I hope to come back with this information later.

But til that - all of you - stay on topic and do not discuss other things - it ment to all even those that try to defend me. In my mind - I see all offtopics as attempt to close the thread

Sincerely Lasse

Yes @Lasse even I could see that you haven’t proved your thesis but hey at least the thread became lighter

Just curious why you dismiss what Humblefish did only to cite your work below as the definitive proof? Has it been peer reviewed and accepted by a journal?