Are these diatoms?

[Idech]

I have heaviest algae on the rocks and stuff.

Is it possible to only have dinos in sand, and none on rocks?

Yes, some Dino’s mostly stay on the sand.

 

[shawtygotbass]

Wait a minit.....


Maybe re-do the test without the coffee filter? I don't even drink coffee. ;)

Did anything seem to move/regroup from the time you placed the sample under the light?


...which nutrient history is true?? Low? Or high like you mentioned earlier?


It's unusual to have other algae AND dino's. A dino bloom is usually very successful at killing off everything else in the tank. Since you seem to have at least green hair algae AND this other algae, I'm guessing not dino's.

But it occasionally happens that someone will get dino's in an otherwise normal-seeming tank....but never a full-on bloom.

As long as you're growing plenty of other stuff (eg green algae), just continue stabilizing the tank and doing what you can to add diversity....new amphipods and copepods, etc can help a little. Siphon out or hand-remove as much algae as you can as often as you can – regardless of the algae type. (Siphoning into a low-micon filter sock lets you put the water back in the tank after siphoning. Use <50µ....something closer to 5µ or 10µ would be more ideal.)

If it does turn out to be dino's and the tank trends more toward an outbreak, then make sure you've read the first page on my dino thread and get started with the info there:
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

It’s Dino’s

Might explain why my turbo snails and elegance coral has been struggling lately.

 

[Idech]

It’s Dino’s

Might explain why my turbo snails and elegance coral has been struggling lately.

Indeed. Don’t know what they are but not Prorocentrum and not LCA.

 

[shawtygotbass]

Indeed. Don’t know what they are but not Prorocentrum and not LCA.

I’m like 90% sure they’re Ostreopsis. I created an ID thread to hopefully get some responses from the ID experts.

It fits the description as they form long strings over time, seem toxic to some of my coral, and has the lighter colored beak.

I just got a UV sterilizer I’m about to hook up. Will prob order some somecods and a pod hotel block thing too.

 

[mcarroll]

Pretty unusual to have them bloom under "good" (ie "high") nutrient conditions.

• Double check your test results
• What is your tank temperature? Any changes leading up to this?
• Same questions for pH.
• [For ostreopsis] consider tweaking your tank temperature, either up or down a couple of degrees (more if you're OK with it) and see how it goes for up to a week or so.
• Can you give a brief rundown of how the tank was started and how it's being cleaned and filtered?

 

[shawtygotbass]

Pretty unusual to have them bloom under "good" (ie "high") nutrient conditions.

• Double check your test results
• What is your tank temperature? Any changes leading up to this?
• Same questions for pH.
• [For ostreopsis] consider tweaking your tank temperature, either up or down a couple of degrees (more if you're OK with it) and see how it goes for up to a week or so.
• Can you give a brief rundown of how the tank was started and how it's being cleaned and filtered?

I think the nutrient readings are correct. I use the Red Sea PO4/NO3 test kit. Tested every couple weeks since setting up the tank last March and always got similar results. Never bottomed out, but lowish readings. 2PPM nitrate and .08 phosphate. Keep in mind, I had algae almost the entire time. Not sure if it was Dinos or not the entire time though.

Tank is a 20 gallon AIO cube with a clownfish pair. I did a fishless cycle last February/March on dry rock. I have ~30 pounds of rock, bioballs/sponges/sock in the overflow area, and 1x power head in addition to return pump. (Adding a second power head this week).

Weekly, 5gallon (25%) water changes and I scrub the rock work with a toothbrush to knock off algae.

It runs 76 degrees and hadn’t had any fluctuations.

PH fluctuates a bit depending on how much photosynthesis is happening. Normally was 8.1, but it drops to 7.8 sometimes.

Around May, I moved over my corals from a tank I was fallowing following a brook outbreak. My theory (changes daily at this point as I research and try to tackle this mess) is that the “algae” growing on my corals in the fallowed tank was dinos. I was running that tank empty for 2.5 months with just my coral and a snail, so nutrients prob bottomed out from algae consuming it, then dinos started. Then when I brought over the coral, the dinos spread because my tank was still so immature.

I identified ostreopsis and small cell dinos. Luckily, both of these go waterborne at night. So I started running a 9W Green Killing Machine this afternoon. Seems people have had good results using this. I’ll buy a nicer UV if I don’t get results with this one.

I also started running carbon today. My elegance coral has been dying over the last 2 months and I had no idea why. Now I do…

I also plan to go to the fish store and buy some pods and a pod “hotel” block thing tomorrow. I don’t run macro algae so not sure where else to house them.

I hope the UV works because it’s so frustrating!

 

[mcarroll]

Tank is a 20 gallon AIO cube with a clownfish pair. I did a fishless cycle last February/March on dry rock.

IMO this is part of the root of the problem....a reason your tank was so susceptible to dino's.

It's very popular, but essentially you are culturing your live rock to be just bio-media, populated mostly by nitrifiers.

While functional on some levels, this is very un-reeflike in it's near-monocrop-ness.

I suspect this has ramifications for the development of the rock (RHF has me thinking about ammonia deprivation). IMO this practice (which is more officially called "conditioning your bio-media") is best reserved for fish-only tanks and the filters that serve them.

I have ~30 pounds of rock, bioballs/sponges/sock in the overflow area, and 1x power head in addition to return pump. (Adding a second power head this week).

With that amount of rock, I would ix-nay the rest of the bio-media and even consider ditching the mechanical filtration....unless that's specifically for the dino's or algae. (ie discontinue general use)

Weekly, 5gallon (25%) water changes and I scrub the rock work with a toothbrush to knock off algae.

Scrubbing is almost resetting your rock to Day 1 each time.

Switch tactics to siphoning and pulling by hand. If you have a low-micron filter sock (ie ≤ 50µ) siphon into that and then you can re-use the water....just put it back in the tank....no water change, just junk removal.

Pull by hand like melev demonstrates in this video:

It runs 76 degrees and hadn’t had any fluctuations.

Lots of room to go up if you want to try that. If you do, I'd raise your temp to 82ºF and see if that helps things along.

Ostreopsis blooms (in the wild) die out in response to various seasonal environmental changes, most significantly nutrient changes, but also significantly, temperature and chemistry changes. (One of the posted Ostreopsis journal articles on my blog has a chart showing this.)

PH fluctuates a bit depending on how much photosynthesis is happening. Normally was 8.1, but it drops to 7.8 sometimes.

Sounds about right...probably wouldn't mess with it, but theoretically this is another parameter you could consider tweaking to try to signal the end for your bloom.

Around May, I moved over my corals from a tank I was fallowing following a brook outbreak. My theory (changes daily at this point as I research and try to tackle this mess) is that the “algae” growing on my corals in the fallowed tank was dinos. I was running that tank empty for 2.5 months with just my coral and a snail, so nutrients prob bottomed out from algae consuming it, then dinos started. Then when I brought over the coral, the dinos spread because my tank was still so immature.

I agree with your theory, with the addition stated earlier....the ammonia startup. Immature and slowed down.

I identified ostreopsis and small cell dinos. Luckily, both of these go waterborne at night. So I started running a 9W Green Killing Machine this afternoon. Seems people have had good results using this. I’ll buy a nicer UV if I don’t get results with this one.

Should work....deploy it like the folks using them in my dino thread do. I think 2 gallons per watt was a rule of thumb folks were using...if I recall correctly. Should work for your tank.

I also started running carbon today. My elegance coral has been dying over the last 2 months and I had no idea why. Now I do…

I also plan to go to the fish store and buy some pods and a pod “hotel” block thing tomorrow. I don’t run macro algae so not sure where else to house them.

As Julien Sprung said at a MACNA once – everything is a refugium. I'm sure there are uses for a pod hotel....but lots of things can be makeshift "pod housing." Rocks. Sand bed. Etc..

I hope the UV works because it’s so frustrating!

It will help.

Micron filters can also help...not too expensive to buy and downright economical to DIY.

 

[shawtygotbass]

IMO this is part of the root of the problem....a reason your tank was so susceptible to dino's.

It's very popular, but essentially you are culturing your live rock to be just bio-media, populated mostly by nitrifiers.

While functional on some levels, this is very un-reeflike in it's near-monocrop-ness.

I suspect this has ramifications for the development of the rock (RHF has me thinking about ammonia deprivation). IMO this practice (which is more officially called "conditioning your bio-media") is best reserved for fish-only tanks and the filters that serve them.


With that amount of rock, I would ix-nay the rest of the bio-media and even consider ditching the mechanical filtration....unless that's specifically for the dino's or algae. (ie discontinue general use)


Scrubbing is almost resetting your rock to Day 1 each time.

Switch tactics to siphoning and pulling by hand. If you have a low-micron filter sock (ie ≤ 50µ) siphon into that and then you can re-use the water....just put it back in the tank....no water change, just junk removal.

Pull by hand like melev demonstrates in this video:



Lots of room to go up if you want to try that. If you do, I'd raise your temp to 82ºF and see if that helps things along.

Ostreopsis blooms (in the wild) die out in response to various seasonal environmental changes, most significantly nutrient changes, but also significantly, temperature and chemistry changes. (One of the posted Ostreopsis journal articles on my blog has a chart showing this.)


Sounds about right...probably wouldn't mess with it, but theoretically this is another parameter you could consider tweaking to try to signal the end for your bloom.


I agree with your theory, with the addition stated earlier....the ammonia startup. Immature and slowed down.


Should work....deploy it like the folks using them in my dino thread do. I think 2 gallons per watt was a rule of thumb folks were using...if I recall correctly. Should work for your tank.


As Julien Sprung said at a MACNA once – everything is a refugium. I'm sure there are uses for a pod hotel....but lots of things can be makeshift "pod housing." Rocks. Sand bed. Etc..


It will help.

Micron filters can also help...not too expensive to buy and downright economical to DIY.

I appreciate the detailed response! That was very informative. I had a couple follow ups of you don’t mind.

Regarding the bio-diversity we target on our live rocks in addition to nitrifying bacteria, can you elaborate? I have coraline algae forming. But other than coraline algae and nitrifying bacteria, what do we want living on the rocks? And is this why people don’t stuff like micro-bacter in order to increase biodiversity? Should I be doing that?

I can try removing one sponge at a time to avoid a disruption to the nitrifying bacteria. I need more space in the back for when eventually move the UV from the DT to the overflow. Is the thought here that more of the bacteria will shift to the rocks, crowding out the dinos?

Lastly, if I up my temp, can I lower it again as the Dino’s die off? Or would they come back?

 

[mcarroll]

Regarding the bio-diversity we target on our live rocks in addition to nitrifying bacteria, can you elaborate? I have coraline algae forming. But other than coraline algae and nitrifying bacteria, what do we want living on the rocks? And is this why people don’t stuff like micro-bacter in order to increase biodiversity? Should I be doing that?

Live rock (from the ocean) was revolutionary because of *everything* that it brought with it. (Reducing the discussion to just worry over hitchhikers, as we often see, is very much a travesty.)

"Everything" as in a cross section of reef life...often macro life like algae, worms, crabs, corals, etc, but always micro. Everything from cyanobacteria on up.

One categorical term for this cross section of marine/reef life is periphyton.

We love Tampa Bay Saltwater and other live rock aquaculturists becuase of the periphyton they farm with their man-made/mined rock.

Here's a great article, although nerdy:
Metagenomic sequencing of marine periphyton: taxonomic and functional insights into biofilm communities

Per the article, a lot of what makes up this reef community is still "unknown to science" or at least unknown to the genome sequencing machines they use in these studies. But here's a diagram (from the article) showing what's known, in rank order:

If that kind of data makes your eyes glaze over, here's a quote that explains it "good enough":

The analyzed communities contained a comprehensive set of functional genes and biochemical pathways.

Comprehensive being the operative word! :)

All of that microbial life is what gives wild reefs their stability and resilience – it takes a large, diverse community to be stable.

And THAT is what made live rock tanks of the 80's, 90's, 00's better than old fashioned saltwater tanks of the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 10's and 20's. We borrow that stability and resiliency "formula" when we use real live rock.

Definitely not required reading, but here's an article I saved that helps explain the topic of stability and diverse communites:
Higher-order interactions stabilize dynamics in competitive network models

When we do things like dose ammonia, culture bacterial supplements, filter out food and detritus, etc., we do not get an ecosystem, we more or less just get "a filter" that generates "waste". Is a filter good at anything else, like resisting algae settlement, or not harboring parasites, etc? Judging from the results of a whole lotta people, apparently not. A healthy, diverse periphyton (e.g. on real live rock) can do these things and a lot, lot more.

One of the main things done by a reef's periphyton is nutrient cycling. Reefs can exist in "zero nutrient water" almost solely because of the reef's fantastic nutrient cycling capabilities. (Not all reefs exist in zero nutrient water, but some do!!)

I can try removing one sponge at a time to avoid a disruption to the nitrifying bacteria. I need more space in the back for when eventually move the UV from the DT to the overflow. Is the thought here that more of the bacteria will shift to the rocks, crowding out the dinos?

It's more that *ammonia consumption* will shift to the rocks...and not just for nitrification.

The thought being that all those "lesser" critters that we don't specifically know about yet may need the ammonia as a primary nutrient....works better as a source of N than nitrite or nitrate for some of them (maybe most?).

*But it's also* that farming excess bacteria during a dino outbreak (even a small one like yours) doesn't really make sense as IMO it can contribute (as a food source) to the bloom's longevity.

As an aside, check this out: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation

Ultimately you hope the periphyton grows healthier....in the process dino's will stop blooming and return to their much more innocuous epiphytic lifestyle. (They're part of the periphyton too.)

Lastly, if I up my temp, can I lower it again as the Dino’s die off? Or would they come back?

All you're trying to do is give them the signal that "starvation season" is over....so once you stop seeing large numbers "congregating" you can try going back to normal. (If the conditions come back, or still exist, that caused the dino's to pop up, then they will be back....and you'll know more troubleshooting is required.)

It's "always" been an idea, but I've only heard of a few people testing temperature changes, BTW, so consider it an experiment and be ready to "pull the plug" on it if anything seems "off". That said, it seemed to work for at least one of those few people I heard from/about...and there didn't seem to be any side effects. (I lack details on outcomes for the rest.)

 

[shawtygotbass]

Live rock (from the ocean) was revolutionary because of *everything* that it brought with it. (Reducing the discussion to just worry over hitchhikers, as we often see, is very much a travesty.)

"Everything" as in a cross section of reef life...often macro life like algae, worms, crabs, corals, etc, but always micro. Everything from cyanobacteria on up.

One categorical term for this cross section of marine/reef life is periphyton.

We love Tampa Bay Saltwater and other live rock aquaculturists becuase of the periphyton they farm with their man-made/mined rock.

Here's a great article, although nerdy:
Metagenomic sequencing of marine periphyton: taxonomic and functional insights into biofilm communities

Per the article, a lot of what makes up this reef community is still "unknown to science" or at least unknown to the genome sequencing machines they use in these studies. But here's a diagram (from the article) showing what's known, in rank order:

If that kind of data makes your eyes glaze over, here's a quote that explains it "good enough":


Comprehensive being the operative word! :)

All of that microbial life is what gives wild reefs their stability and resilience – it takes a large, diverse community to be stable.

And THAT is what made live rock tanks of the 80's, 90's, 00's better than old fashioned saltwater tanks of the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 10's and 20's. We borrow that stability and resiliency "formula" when we use real live rock.

Definitely not required reading, but here's an article I saved that helps explain the topic of stability and diverse communites:
Higher-order interactions stabilize dynamics in competitive network models

When we do things like dose ammonia, culture bacterial supplements, filter out food and detritus, etc., we do not get an ecosystem, we more or less just get "a filter" that generates "waste". Is a filter good at anything else, like resisting algae settlement, or not harboring parasites, etc? Judging from the results of a whole lotta people, apparently not. A healthy, diverse periphyton (e.g. on real live rock) can do these things and a lot, lot more.

One of the main things done by a reef's periphyton is nutrient cycling. Reefs can exist in "zero nutrient water" almost solely because of the reef's fantastic nutrient cycling capabilities. (Not all reefs exist in zero nutrient water, but some do!!)


It's more that *ammonia consumption* will shift to the rocks...and not just for nitrification.

The thought being that all those "lesser" critters that we don't specifically know about yet may need the ammonia as a primary nutrient....works better as a source of N than nitrite or nitrate for some of them (maybe most?).

*But it's also* that farming excess bacteria during a dino outbreak (even a small one like yours) doesn't really make sense as IMO it can contribute (as a food source) to the bloom's longevity.

As an aside, check this out: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation

Ultimately you hope the periphyton grows healthier....in the process dino's will stop blooming and return to their much more innocuous epiphytic lifestyle. (They're part of the periphyton too.)


All you're trying to do is give them the signal that "starvation season" is over....so once you stop seeing large numbers "congregating" you can try going back to normal. (If the conditions come back, or still exist, that caused the dino's to pop up, then they will be back....and you'll know more troubleshooting is required.)

It's "always" been an idea, but I've only heard of a few people testing temperature changes, BTW, so consider it an experiment and be ready to "pull the plug" on it if anything seems "off". That said, it seemed to work for at least one of those few people I heard from/about...and there didn't seem to be any side effects. (I lack details on outcomes for the rest.)

Ohh that all makes a ton of sense.

I just removed the sponges from the overflow. Will check my ammonia tonight and tomorrow to see if I need to dose Prime. Can look to remove the bio-rings in a week or so once the bacteria re-stabilizes. I’ve wanted to do this for a while anyways to make more room in the overflow sump, so glad I found the reason to!

As for the bio-diversity and periphyton, that’s SUPER interesting. I’m going to take a look at these articles. I did just get a large new sinularia from a lady who has had her system setup like 25 years, so hopefully it brought some goodies.

I live in San Diego, I could go grab some rocks/shells on my next dive. Not sure if that would be beneficial though if what lives out here is cold water species and would work in a warm, coral reef ecosystem. And I’m always so paranoid about putting in anything directly from the ocean in case it has some fish disease or something.

 

[shawtygotbass]

Update:

Dinos appear to be on the run. I have the clear sand and barely any returning to the glass when I wipe it each evening.

I have been:

• running UV
• dosing microbacter7
• removed the filter sponges to force more bacteria to move to the rocks (didn’t create any ammonia impact)
• turned the lights down from 50% to 20% (idk what that means in watts or PAR, just eyeballed it). Also only using blue light. Corals seem fine still.
• Added live pods
• Increased temp to 80
• Started dosing silicates yesterday. But I only brought up to .2ppm and haven’t seen diatoms yet. Not sure if that has an impact yet. Will slowly bring up until I hit 1ppm.

I like to think a little bit of everything is working, but I’m a skeptical person. My biggest fear is that the lower lights is just masking the symptoms.

But I think in all reality is the UV is having the biggest impact as I identified ostreospis and small cell, both who are susceptible to UV. Additionally, the dinos came back as strong as normal the first day after using lower lights, but have reduced substantially day 2 and 3. So that’s points towards an actual impact, not just lights masking symptoms.