Are water changes over rated?

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Not exactly sure what you’re saying is true :)

Without the ability to test for specific organics (which is unlikely in my lifetime) it is possible the efforts to reduce them are unneeded.

 

[Troylee]

Can't answer that because test were taken end of life on April 2024 yet sample tested includes everything that existed since September 2021 when it was drained of fresh and replaced with distilled to then acclimate salifin mollies to 35 ppt salt and later topped with tap. Wish I had sent samples at different points and what I'm changing next round.

For example, my tap has approximately 6 ug/l of Zinc and tank which has had 2 gallons of top off added weekly last six months plus only has 28. Either that was a high sample, incorrect test or something is naturally consuming it. Very likely the Pom Pom macro or GHA. Similar results with everything that was found in my tap sample although only 5 elements of concern found. At the same time, have items in my tank not in my source sample such as nickle. Might just be the sample didn't at the time taken. Might be something added from food or possibly a damaged pump. No clue but test was promising as I learned to control nutrients such as N&P via denitrification and carbon dosing. Solve dino and cyano via silicates and macroalgae. Latter purely anecdotal.

Not being difficult. Just not something easily conveyed due to length of test duration and lack of samples tested. Picture in this situation fails to paint an understanding.

I feel like you’re beating yourself up over nothing! Why are you trying so hard fighting algae’s etc? Just use rodi water and do water changes! I’ve never had to deal or fight a tank besides Dino’s and they’re not the end of the world lol.. algae has never been a problem in my tanks they’re all sparkly clean.. I just added another 30 pounds of dry rock to my tank and the only issue I’ll experience is po4 dropping lol.. never seen the uglies and never will! Mix up some calcium carbonate with zeobak or mb7 and dose the tank and coat them fresh surfaces and keep on trucking!

 

[Garf]

I feel like you’re beating yourself up over nothing! Why are you trying so hard fighting algae’s etc? Just use rodi water and do water changes! I’ve never had to deal or fight a tank besides Dino’s and they’re not the end of the world lol.. algae has never been a problem in my tanks they’re all sparkly clean.. I just added another 30 pounds of dry rock to my tank and the only issue I’ll experience is po4 dropping lol.. never seen the uglies and never will! Mix up some calcium carbonate with zeobak or mb7 and dose the tank and coat them fresh surfaces and keep on trucking!

Did Bob the builder do aquariums? He would have fixed it, lol

 

[Troylee]

Did Bob the builder do aquariums? He would have fixed it, lol

I build them, fix them, grow them.. lol..

 

[GARRIGA]

I feel like you’re beating yourself up over nothing! Why are you trying so hard fighting algae’s etc? Just use rodi water and do water changes! I’ve never had to deal or fight a tank besides Dino’s and they’re not the end of the world lol.. algae has never been a problem in my tanks they’re all sparkly clean.. I just added another 30 pounds of dry rock to my tank and the only issue I’ll experience is po4 dropping lol.. never seen the uglies and never will! Mix up some calcium carbonate with zeobak or mb7 and dose the tank and coat them fresh surfaces and keep on trucking!

How I roll and I’m not changing. Honestly. Had a bad day in the market and tired of explaining my actions because another doesn’t have the entire backstory. I’m not a newbie. Appreciate the advise but none asked.

 

[Garf]

How I roll and I’m not changing. Honestly. Had a bad day in the market and tired of explaining my actions because another doesn’t have the entire backstory. I’m not a newbie. Appreciate the advise but none asked.

You've got to admit though, having a failed tank, running the systems you propose as the future doesn't look good, surely. Ive done some odd stuff also but it is based upon experience (and support from Randy and co.)

 

[GARRIGA]

You've got to admit though, having a failed tank, running the systems you propose as the future doesn't look good, surely. Ive done some odd stuff also but it is based upon experience (and support from Randy and co.)

Who said anything about having a failed tank? :confused:

 

[areefer01]

Who said anything about having a failed tank? :confused:

I think that was your post #217 when you said tank is gone when they asked to see the display.

 

[GARRIGA]

I think that was your post #217 when you said tank is gone when they asked to see the display.

Because floors were getting upgraded and not because it crashed. Why best ask vs assuming. Although technically it lives on outside with some water, rocks and Nassarius transferred over to a Brute 20. Now testing green water.

It’s a test tank. Test being the operative and defining purpose. ;)

Can we all now just stop jumping to conclusions? Feel as if I’m talking to my wife on how a sale doesn’t actually save me money. :rolleyes:

 

[areefer01]

Because floors were getting upgraded and not because it crashed. Why best ask vs assuming. Although technically it lives on outside with some water, rocks and Nassarius transferred over to a Brute 20. Now testing green water.

It’s a test tank. Test being the operative and defining purpose. ;)

Can we all now just stop jumping to conclusions? Feel as if I’m talking to my wife on how a sale doesn’t actually save me money. :rolleyes:

Time out - I was just answering your question and giving the reference. I am not the originator. I'm not paying anyone a stipend to run their displays so I have no say in how they are running them.

 

[GARRIGA]

Time out - I was just answering your question and giving the reference. I am not the originator. I'm not paying anyone a stipend to run their displays so I have no say in how they are running them.

You answered not having all the facts and no question actually asked. My comment was rhetorical. :cool:

 

[Garf]

Because floors were getting upgraded and not because it crashed. Why best ask vs assuming. Although technically it lives on outside with some water, rocks and Nassarius transferred over to a Brute 20. Now testing green water.

It’s a test tank. Test being the operative and defining purpose. ;)

Can we all now just stop jumping to conclusions? Feel as if I’m talking to my wife on how a sale doesn’t actually save me money. :rolleyes:

I fail to see how any of this "zero waterchange" testing/evidence is relevant if you don't have corals or fish. You are not going to learn a lot by cooking a few rocks in a bucket. In my opinion, recycling algal growth to feed a snail has little weight in your assertion that reef tanks do not benefit from waterchanges.

 

[GARRIGA]

I fail to see how any of this "zero waterchange" testing/evidence is relevant if you don't have corals or fish. You are not going to learn a lot by cooking a few rocks in a bucket. In my opinion, recycling algal growth to feed a snail has little weight in your assertion that reef tanks do not benefit from waterchanges.

Not all tests are to determine if change is needed and I'm not cooking rocks in a tub although they often do on a shallow flat at low water with rocks and clams attached plus my test did previously include fish and one coral. Stop assuming and it might help you understand.

 

[Garf]

Stop assuming and it might help you understand

The single Xenia you had died, did it not? You had an uncontrollable algae/dino problem, despite peroxide,did you not? If you consider that as success then great, that's up to you, however, you are portraying this as a success to everyone who may come across these threads. I'm pretty sure I understand what is going on here very well thank you, and none of it appears to be evidence that waterchanges do not benefit reef tanks. If you are just messing with stuff to learn for yourself, then knock yourself out, that's great. Perhaps I've misunderstood your stance on waterchanges however. I've assumed that you have concluded that waterchanges are not beneficial, when in fact you may just be on the start of the journey and are as yet undecided, hence the tests, in which case that's great also.

 

[GARRIGA]

The single Xenia you had died, did it not? You had an uncontrollable algae/dino problem, despite peroxide,did you not? If you consider that as success then great, that's up to you, however, you are portraying this as a success to everyone who may come across these threads. I'm pretty sure I understand what is going on here very well thank you, and none of it appears to be evidence that waterchanges do not benefit reef tanks. If you are just messing with stuff to learn for yourself, then knock yourself out, that's great. Perhaps I've misunderstood your stance on waterchanges however. I've assumed that you have concluded that waterchanges are not beneficial, when in fact you may just be on the start of the journey and are as yet undecided, hence the tests, in which case that's great also.

Here you go again. Assuming you know when in fact you don't have all the context and facts or time line of events. Making wild accusations. I've said what I've said and provided reason why it was said. I'm not going to continue this back and forth because you can't comprehend what I've said. Perhaps I'm failing to articulate myself. At this point. This horse is dead. Just leave it alone. Unless you have a specific question so that you can acquire the proper context or just wait until I make my thread on all I've learned on this experiment and it's continuation outdoors. I'll be posting it in the experimental section along with my new adventure using UV AOP to solve issues with QT, pathogen control and ultimately managing the unknown.

Your desire to prove me wrong isn't helping anyone. Try just asking a question and we can get this back on track to being productive and beneficial. I'm trying my best to converse with you. Perhaps you can help in that regard as I'm sure you have a lot to contribute. Minus the accusatory assumptions. Please

 

[Garf]

Making wild accusations

No idea what this refers to.

new adventure using UV AOP to solve issues with QT, pathogen control and ultimately managing the unknown.

Aren't folk doing this on humble fish site already?

Your desire to prove me wrong isn't helping anyone

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I want you to prove you are right. The comment of visual evidence being overrated is a massive red flag, to me.

Minus the accusatory assumptions.

No idea what this refers to.

Just leave it alone

Will do, just off to spend 30 seconds doing my daily waterchange anyway.

 

[GARRIGA]

No idea what this refers to.

Aren't folk doing this on humble fish site already?

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I want you to prove you are right. The comment of visual evidence being overrated is a massive red flag, to me.

No idea what this refers to.

Will do, just off to spend 30 seconds doing my daily waterchange anyway.

HumbleFish isn't using UV AOP that I'm aware of. Fact is no one I know is using UV AOP in home aquariums. Wish they were. It would help me.

Only reason I've gone to that site due to a search for peroxide and recall him mentioning the need to solve how to decompose peroxide quickly so he could perform larger dips. Something I'm also seeking and part of my upcoming tests. Was also following his site years ago on tank transfer yet felt perhaps using sediment filtration would be better utilize. Have a thread on that from around 2021.

I've never been a fan of medication unless needed. Not against vaccines or medication for self. I have my shots. Just not a fan when it comes to fish or reptiles. Don't feel I will ever be fully versed and believe that when medication isn't administered correctly it could cause more problems than solved. Seek other means to solve most problems.

 

[Timfish]

AOP stands for advanced oxidation process where ozone or peroxide in my case interacts with 254nm ultraviolet creating OH (hydroxyl radicals) that as you mentioned and yes it is suppose to sterilize all organics based on what I've read no different then the literature you are relying on to believe toxins are produced within an aquarium as it is at sea. Not questioning they exist. Just the fact we have no way of validating and quantifying they do. It's blind faith as it pertains to any one particular tank.. . .

Uhm, No. The refferences I posted aren't talking about toxins. They're talking about microbial processes. It's also clear these processes are species specific so (it seems to me) obviously and differences in species between two systems will mean differences in the microbial processes. Even if there are the same species differences in environmental factors (lighting, water parameters, etc.) can produce differences. We do have microbiomes tests to validate and quantify the processes are occuring in out systems, it's just not very easy or convienent.

Now that I understand what you are talking removing a set amount of water, treating to remove everything, then returning it to the system, I can see where that could work.

 

[Timfish]

AOP stands for advanced oxidation process where ozone or peroxide in my case interacts with 254nm ultraviolet creating OH (hydroxyl radicals) that as you mentioned and yes it is suppose to sterilize all organics based on what I've read no different then the literature you are relying on to believe toxins are produced within an aquarium as it is at sea. Not questioning they exist. Just the fact we have no way of validating and quantifying they do. It's blind faith as it pertains to any one particular tank.. . .

Uhm, No. The refferences I posted aren't talking about toxins. They're talking about microbial processes. It's also clear these processes are species specific so (it seems to me) obviously and differences in species between two systems will mean differences in the microbial processes. Even if there are the same species differences in environmental factors (lighting, water parameters, etc.) can produce differences. We do have microbiomes tests to validate and quantify the processes are occuring in out systems, it's just not very easy or convienent.

Now that I understand what you are talking removing a set amount of water, treating to remove everything, then returning it to the system, I can see where that could work.

I've dug into Advanced Oxidative Process a bit more and have to disagree with it's use to eliminate water changes. A major portion of the DOC in a system is refractory meaning it's resistant to degredation. The problem with adding labile DOC to a system is it allows heterotrophic to utilize refractory DOC as food source and proliferate. You're correct AOP will break down both the DOC as well as any microbial stuff. But it doesn't seem to be s effective as you assert with this paper only achieving 50% reduction at the optimal dosing. (Did you actually test for DOC or TOC in yor experiments?) While the process does break down DOC into water, CO2 there are also BIODEGRADABLE molecules left in the water. If those biodegradable molecules are returned to the tank that's only going to promote additional microbial growth so i don't see how AOP can be considered as a viable alternative to water changes.

(Table 4 from this paper was interesting comparing the cost to remove 40% of teh DOC from RO effluent in wastewater treatment:


)

 

[GARRIGA]

I've dug into Advanced Oxidative Process a bit more and have to disagree with it's use to eliminate water changes. A major portion of the DOC in a system is refractory meaning it's resistant to degredation. The problem with adding labile DOC to a system is it allows heterotrophic to utilize refractory DOC as food source and proliferate. You're correct AOP will break down both the DOC as well as any microbial stuff. But it doesn't seem to be s effective as you assert with this paper only achieving 50% reduction at the optimal dosing. (Did you actually test for DOC or TOC in yor experiments?) While the process does break down DOC into water, CO2 there are also BIODEGRADABLE molecules left in the water. If those biodegradable molecules are returned to the tank that's only going to promote additional microbial growth so i don't see how AOP can be considered as a viable alternative to water changes.

(Table 4 from this paper was interesting comparing the cost to remove 40% of teh DOC from RO effluent in wastewater treatment:


)

This is beyond my comprehension skills. I'm a finance guy that specializes in reverse engineering processes for efficiency and accuracy and not a biologist or chemist therefore getting into the weeds for me futile.

My objective is to periodically sterilize that one would throw out and replace. Thought process being this can be done more frequently therefore over time dilute organic impurities including pathogens and that produced by corals and currently not testable yet assumed present because they may not have degraded naturally.

The biodegradable returned being the word is biodegradable doesn't infer something naturally would then solve them? In layman's terms. What exactly is my concern if no water change ever conducted and AOP deployed for short duration long enough to equate to one complete tank turnover periodically to be determined based on how life reacts?

My research limited to my search skills and access has shown nothing can survive hydroxyl radicals which is how our atmosphere cleanses itself.