Are water changes over rated?

[Paul B]

I change some water if I am in the mood and have nothing else to do and I do it about 3 or 4 times a year.
No issues yet. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[GARRIGA]

The visual of carrying buckets of water and sloshing it all over the floor! Invest in a mixing station and save yourself time! I pull a garden hose to my tank flip 2 valves and flip a switch on my pump.. 100 gallon change in 10 minutes and no mess! I have better things to spend my time on then trying to figure out why I have this problem or that problem and what’s gonna cure it! Water changes keep a tank healthy and has been the back bone of reefing since day one! Yep it’s the duct tape “band aid” of reef keeping and fixes most problems!

I'm in the same boat as Koty, main display going in my living room and nearest entry for RO front of my house yet no place for filtration. Would have been nice if it entered the garage although trying to see how I leverage the water heater which is piped, obviously. RODI station at the moment not in my plans other than a small unit outside for top off at best (collecting filtered rain in the thought process as well) and therefore perfecting no change my only goal unless I want to just continue with desk top where grocery store distilled more than adequate. Main going to be 200 to 400 gallons based on electricity needed. Another critical concern I'm juggling how to maneuver. Might end up with softies requiring less flow and light. End of day I'm mostly a fish guy therefore if all fails or gets too complicated pet Oscars be fine and old school dead coral skeletons. :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[brandon429]

The answer to this question is simple

A bell curve top was reached, it seems never ending

But it's a bell curve nonetheless, how to handle the down is the true answer

So let's see it

Someone show five reef tanks, not your own, that were fixed of an invasion without water changes.

Meaning someone saw a help thread, stepped in and fixed the tank and they posted final results. Those threads aren't hard to come by if you seek the work out, even today new jobs posted for help in the algae help forum

The basis of this question is riding the top of a bell curve and that seeming endless, but it's not. Seek out the tanks on the down slope, post what works


Both the upside phase and downside phase happens in reefing, any best method can be applied in both settings, not just one

Water changes are needed for the average Joe and me, that's for sure. Where the work is, we do em:)

Now the pros won't need them for sure


Some have ten year old untouched reefs, reported, I've seen it mentioned in books too from back in the day, mag articles


As soon as a pro shows us five fixes done outbound, recent jobs from today's challenges, and no water changes, we will have the null hypothesis as the winner


Water changes are required for long term reefing. Nobody fixes reefs without water changes, those thread examples aren't coming. I've got dang good fix ones handy though where we used water changes :)

 

[VintageReefer]

I understand you're a vet, but that system is nothing but a bunch of frags. Not sure why this is any kind of testimonial for no water changes.

My acros are frags as I’ve only begun adding them a few months ago, but my acro frags, along with all my other frags are healthy colorful and growing

Many of the lps in here are not frags. I have a hammer colony that’s grown 25 heads in 1.5 heads, torches they went from 1to 8 heads, Gonis that are 4+ inches in less than a year, favia that grew from 1 head .75” into a 4” colony, a wall hammer that went from 4” to 8” in a year, scroll coral that went from .75” to 8+” and many of the larger lps don’t really grow, it’s very natural for slow growth on lobo, trachy, scoly, but these are items that took over 10 years in the wild to get to their current size and they are transplanted into my system and doing great. Half of my tank is over 2 years old.

I also grow out plate coral babies that start as .25” and once they get to 1-1.25” I sell them. The parent plate started as .25” and now is 3”

 

[Troylee]

I'm in the same boat as Koty, main display going in my living room and nearest entry for RO front of my house yet no place for filtration. Would have been nice if it entered the garage although trying to see how I leverage the water heater which is piped, obviously. RODI station at the moment not in my plans other than a small unit outside for top off at best (collecting filtered rain in the thought process as well) and therefore perfecting no change my only goal unless I want to just continue with desk top where grocery store distilled more than adequate. Main going to be 200 to 400 gallons based on electricity needed. Another critical concern I'm juggling how to maneuver. Might end up with softies requiring less flow and light. End of day I'm mostly a fish guy therefore if all fails or gets too complicated pet Oscars be fine and old school dead coral skeletons. :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

I have a 100ft hose reel in my garage where my storage tanks are and rodi. It works great! It takes all 100ft to reach my tank.

 

[brandon429]

The number one, above all, proof to avoid in the matter is someone's really old tank at home
The very thing we are trained to accept as proof is fluffable, because all evaluation comes from within house

Stepping outbound to perform for others, and their evaluation is final: whole different ballgame


I think that's why book authors in reefing avoid the jobs :) their basis is all in house material plus excellent citations

But where the work is: the pros aren't
(People who fix tanks in the nuisance algae forum, it's giant dinos stickies etc, all outbound jobs vs first person ones, no book authors play there
There's no faking a live time fix run.

 

[GARRIGA]

I have a 100ft hose reel in my garage where my storage tanks are and rodi. It works great! It takes all 100ft to reach my tank.

Happy wife. Happy life. That hose better not spill a drop if you know where I'm going with that :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

I hear you but I've considered all the options and in the end it's either none or gone. Why I'm going to experiment with OH as a replacement to changing water. See how that goes. Key being the removal of that not wanted vs adding that needed. Trace supplements solves latter.

Plus can't see any easy and quick way to periodically change enough to solve 400 gallons. 30% means more frequent than 50% and both still require massive RODI and salt tanks in the garage larger than my water heater. Room is sparse as it barely fits two cars and I'm buying an SUV. Not all homes are created equal and why no one shoe fits all. Plus what of the guys with apartments? They want tanks too and standing up a temporary Brutes to fill with RODI and later have salt added would be better served not changing a drop. Was that guy once and this was before RODI went mainstream. All I had to solve was mixing the salt and getting to tank temperature.

 

[burnsq]

Is a water change in essence not nothing more than a saltmix change? I see that it is a lot easier and praticable to just mix new water and add it, but would it not maybe be sufficient to suck out the detritus, let it settle and then add the clear water again. It you filter through carbon and fleece and then dose you would not need a water change?
I have no idea about nitrate though, it may dissolve through bacteria as well?

 

[VintageReefer]

Is a water change in essence not nothing more than a saltmix change? I see that it is a lot easier and praticable to just mix new water and add it, but would it not maybe be sufficient to suck out the detritus, let it settle and then add the clear water again. It you filter through carbon and fleece and then dose you would not need a water change?
I have no idea about nitrate though, it may dissolve through bacteria as well?

Algae scrubbers directly consume nitrate and phosphate from the water column.

Skimmers remove the things that eventually turn into nitrates and phosphates

Live sponge and rock in a cryptic zone address DOC

Supplement trace can 95% be done for most people with all for reef. I recently stopped AFR for various personal choices, but it worked well for me. I am trying to work out a new method since replacing it…will be a few months for me to identify my permanent process going forward.

 

[GARRIGA]

Is a water change in essence not nothing more than a saltmix change? I see that it is a lot easier and praticable to just mix new water and add it, but would it not maybe be sufficient to suck out the detritus, let it settle and then add the clear water again. It you filter through carbon and fleece and then dose you would not need a water change?
I have no idea about nitrate though, it may dissolve through bacteria as well?

Filtering out detritus won't solve that in solution not desired. Plus detritus isn't detrimental. Solving the inorganics post decomposition easier solution for me. Why I capture and decompose detritus and think nothing of it. Nitrates can later be solved with carbon dosing unless co2 scrubbing needed for which I've deployed algae to solve that. Some throw in Kalk. Lots of option to solve issues but filtering detritus just removes organics before they break down. Socks and Skimmers perform the same function along with latter adding gas exchange. No one way to skin this cat.

 

[VintageReefer]

Water change free tank I kept 10 years ago. Everything grown from 1-2” frag nubs

 

[Paul B]

I think that's why book authors in reefing avoid the jobs :) their basis is all in house material plus excellent citations

I am a book author with a very old tank and I have no idea what you are talking about. :oops:

 

[iReefer12]

I change some water if I am in the mood and have nothing else to do and I do it about 3 or 4 times a year.
No issues yet. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

@Paul B what is the pink & blue fish here?

 

[Reef Puncher]

Water change is too much work, so I chose a different strategy. IMO, WC is the #1 reason why people do not survive the hobby. My tank has been around for over three years: no WC, ICP, or moonshiners. I do add trace elements from TM and Potassium. I regularly test Alk, Ca, Mg, PO4, NO3, PH, and K.

you can do no water change and no moonshiner method, but it requires ICP testing otherwise your kinda guessing at what trace is lacking and what trace is needed.

 

[SomeHappyFish]

I recommend that you use all export methods. Skimmer, (heavy) carbon and cheato. 50 ppm Nitrate IMO & E is high and spells that your water is too dirty. I also recommend UV.
I use the TM Three part and their A & K elements.

I have an oversized skimmer, I might try carbon dosing for this tank due to the lack of space in my cabinet.

High nitrate might be considered too dirty but it had zero effects on my growth, coloration and polyps extension since the beginning of the system.

I will not use UV. I have currently no desired to kill parasite and I have no algae issues anywhere in my tank due to my macro algae (Dragon's breath & Recently added Codium).

What made you go the anti water change route? It’s so much easier and healthier for your tank to change water and add stuff to dirty it up if you want than to try and get it out.. is it the price of salt? I don’t think I’ll ever understand the no water change method unless you’re on the moonshine and trying to keep every single element in perfect line which is impossible without spending tons of money on icp and by the time you get those results something is off lol…

Lack of space to store RoDI water and I hate/will not do 20G each week in 4, 5G buckets it's dumb IMO I have a physically demanding job and I want to enjoy my reef tanks not haul buckets across a brand new apartment each week and risk spilling water which I often do lol.

5G for water change of tank A
5G for water change of tank B
5G for the ATO of tank A
5G for the ATO of tank B

I can only store 20G total in a bin in my closet. If I had a 100G storage container and a drain nearby, I would 100% do water change with an automated device and a mixing station.

first i had a refugium. it worked ok. but then tried a chaeto reactor. i didnt love it. mainly because a green algae grew all over the reactor, blocking light to the chaeto, making it so i had to clean it too frequently, it was annoying. now i am trying a turf scrubber, im 2 weeks in and its just starting to grow. ill report back if its the best option yet.

Also i bought some bacto balance...its just sitting in my closet, not sure if i should start as i dont have a high nutrient problem.

Thanks for the input ! I feel like carbon dosing might be easier and won't affect my phosphate has much also.

Doing monthly ICP test here in Canada would cost me more then buying the required amount of salts in the whole year. I don't get the moonshine method, just do a water change with matching parameters imo.

I also felt inspired by David Saxby who switched to a no water change method.

it's easier for my to do water change on one tank (mixed reef) and dose only the required stuff on my other tank with less demanding corals (Soft & LPS only).

Doesn’t look bad but could look much better! A water change is only a hassle if you make it one! I invested $500 Into a station and that’s the best investment I feel I ever made for my tank! I can change out 120 gallons in less than 20 minutes and I’m actually excited to do them when I do because I know the rewards of it! I hated them when it was chore and slacked on them! Make it simple and it will change your ways.. I don’t test or do icp or anything and I see great results in my sparkly clean tank! It’s honestly blown every local away how fast I can grow acros in my tank and it’s barely 18 months old.

I live in an apartment its easy to say "Invested $500 Into a station" where the **** do I put two 40G brute trash can ? it's also an eye sore for my GF lol.

 

[VintageReefer]

The sand in this tank has been in place over 10 years, never been manually cleaned once. The rock is all 10+ years old also.

The pics of my tank 10 years ago, is the same tank I run today, and the sand and rock is all the same as well

 

[Big E]

My acros are frags as I’ve only begun adding them a few months ago, but my acro frags, along with all my other frags are healthy colorful and growing

Many of the lps in here are not frags. I have a hammer colony that’s grown 25 heads in 1.5 heads, torches they went from 1to 8 heads, Gonis that are 4+ inches in less than a year, favia that grew from 1 head .75” into a 4” colony, a wall hammer that went from 4” to 8” in a year, scroll coral that went from .75” to 8+” and many of the larger lps don’t really grow, it’s very natural for slow growth on lobo, trachy, scoly, but these are items that took over 10 years in the wild to get to their current size and they are transplanted into my system and doing great. Half of my tank is over 2 years old.

I also grow out plate coral babies that start as .25” and once they get to 1-1.25” I sell them. The parent plate started as .25” and now is 3”

I can only go by the pictures you posted and those gonis look like common size frags. LPS that you mention are weeds in any tank.

Post some growth pics and get back to me.

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B what is the pink & blue fish here?

Chalk Bass

 

[VintageReefer]

I can only go by the pictures you posted and those gonis look like common size frags. LPS that you mention are weeds in any tank.

Post some growth pics and get back to me.

I sold them to make space, I was getting severely overcrowded. Growing out frags is something I take enjoyment of, and when they get medium to large I sell them, trade them, or frag them again. That’s a reason this tank has multiple racks and frags - it’s a display with grown out pieces on the back half and frags in the front on racks. In the past 2 months I’ve sold over $3000 in coral from this tank, and you can’t even tell. It still is full…of the next generation of frags I’m growing out

Anyway I can pick up on your vibe. I’m showing a colorful tank filled with healthy corals, several of them high end and costly due to their slow growth or sensitivity. I don’t suspect your familiar some of my items, or overlook how long it takes to get a Cynarina to double in size, or for a sliced 3/4” lobe from a $2000 lobophyllia colony to survive and heal and regrow into a circular shape to become sellable. Growing a insanity plate from a pinkie nail size into a parent that’s fragable, and making my own pinkie nail slices and growing them into pieces that sell for 500 an inch. An inch of growth is a big deal for certain corals, both acros and lps.

You look down on lps and I’m not going to change your mind. They are weeds

I can post acropora growth and you’ll just say oh that’s milli or oh that’s just a stag and they grow like weeds also.

Nothing more to say here. Tank is doing great and using same water as I filled it 10 years ago. Have zero algae issues, sandbed is bright and clean, fish happy and coral happy.

This was my water change free system with everything grown from 1-2” frags and then I had new frags in the front sandbed that I made from the colonies in the back

And this is the same tank, using the same water sand and rock, and maintenance methods

Both these systems take less than 10 min a week from me. Usually around 5 min a week, excluding feeding.

While some may need water changes for success, and I do think they are important for many, I have learned how to keep successful reefs without them, and have been using these methods for the last 12+ years. I have better ways to spend my time and money.

 

[Paul B]

You look down on lps and I’m not going to change your mind. They are weeds

LOL, I only keep LPS and soft corals now. For many years I kept SPS and difficult corals but I am past that. I also had a phase when I would raise fish, also past that.

When the hobby started in 1971 I and many people had predator tanks with eels, triggers, lionfish etc. Also past that. Eventually we resign and just want to keep what makes us happy so we can spend more time watching them.

I do almost nothing on my tank as it is just a hobby and something I keep for my own enjoyment and not meant to impress anyone except myself. And Maybe my Grand Kids. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: