Are water changes over rated?

[VintageReefer]

Never heard of a doc meter. One can send out for a doc test, but that doesn’t really answer how one would test it. How exactly would you set up two identical aquariums, one with and one without sponges?

I made it up :)

 

[GARRIGA]

How would you test it?

Two tanks setup identically with one being the base scenario and the other including a cryptic zone. Tim mentioned carbon dosing forming DOC therefore we have a source which means add ammonium chloride, biologically process that into nitrates then dose carbon and confirm DOC present in both systems before adding the cryptic zone to one.

I'm assuming DOC can be tested otherwise what are we talking about because I'm then back to exactly why should I be concerned.

 

[VintageReefer]

Two tanks setup identically with one being the base scenario and the other including a cryptic zone. Tim mentioned carbon dosing forming DOC therefore we have a source which means add ammonium chloride, biologically process that into nitrates then dose carbon and confirm DOC present in both systems before adding the cryptic zone to one.

I'm assuming DOC can be tested otherwise what are we talking about because I'm then back to exactly why should I be concerned.

As far as I know there is no practical way for a home aquarist to measure doc

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Two tanks setup identically with one being the base scenario and the other including a cryptic zone. Tim mentioned carbon dosing forming DOC therefore we have a source which means add ammonium chloride, biologically process that into nitrates then dose carbon and confirm DOC present in both systems before adding the cryptic zone to one.

I'm assuming DOC can be tested otherwise what are we talking about because I'm then back to exactly why should I be concerned.

This idea seems very hard to test, IMO.

How long would it take to get a cryptic zone functioning? How would you know? How do you know that other processes in the cryptic zone unrelated to sponges are not important. Lots of folks think denitrification is an important process, and that’s a main place for it. You’d need identical setups with and without sponges, not just with and without a cryptic zone.

DOC is a catch all name for a huge assortment of different chemicals. Is a 5% reduction in doc significant? It might depend strongly on which organics are reduced. Which organics are even there to begin with? That depends on all sorts of other aspects of the tank, from organisms to foods to other organic export methods.

I’m not holding my breath that anyone will ever generate useful data.

 

[GARRIGA]

As far as I know there is no practical way for a home aquarist to measure doc

N DOC or similar not solve measuring it?

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/159b252c9ada7954c231b90f3/files/36706c5d-3f1e-43cb-9a8a-c95c5c43dc45/Triton_Tech_Paper_TRITON_Ratios_final.pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

N DOC or similar not solve measuring it?

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/159b252c9ada7954c231b90f3/files/36706c5d-3f1e-43cb-9a8a-c95c5c43dc45/Triton_Tech_Paper_TRITON_Ratios_final.pdf

Measurement is not the issue, but that’s not the way, IMO.

A true doc test is not hard to send out for.

Organic Carbon analysis | AWQC

Optimise water treatment processes with our dissolved organic carbon (DOC), biodegradable dissolved organic carbon (BDOC), total organic carbon (TOC) and total carbon (TC) testing services.

www.awqc.com.au

 

[GARRIGA]

This idea seems very hard to test, IMO.

How long would it take to get a cryptic zone functioning? How would you know? How do you know that other processes in the cryptic zone unrelated to sponges are not important. Lots of folks think denitrification is an important process, and that’s a main place for it. You’d need identical setups with and without sponges, not just with and without a cryptic zone.

DOC is a catch all name for a huge assortment of different chemicals. Is a 5% reduction in doc significant? It might depend strongly on which organics are reduced. Which organics are even there to begin with? That depends on all sorts of other abject to the tank, from organisms to foods to other organic export methods.

I’m not holding my breath that anyone will ever generate useful data.

I'm talking about two identical system plus one having a cryptic zone. Both get dosed the same amount of ammonium chloride and carbon. Can start both systems with the same bottled bacteria and same amount of it. All kept in the dark to avoid introducing algae and if sealed then likely other inhabitants. Don't know how dinos or cyano appear but components could be sterilized prior to setup with tubing sealed in such a way that only the ammonium chloride and carbon are introduced.

System can consist of a retainer, same media and amount by weight, same pump and flow and same overall water volume minus the space taken up by the area where one will be housing sponges?

Thought the outcome would be having zero DOC in the system housing sponges or are you saying it may only remove some DOC but not all of it?

I'm not a scientist therefore not seeking exact numbers and accept there might be an outside influence affecting the numbers but in general if sponges remove DOC then we should see evidence of that happening. Kind of like cycling a tank where at some point I seek presence or absence vs an exact value.

As far as what specific component of DOC is being removed beyond my knowledge being I'm still not sure why I should even care it exists. Have always assumed it would decompose naturally along with all other carbon sources but again I'm not a scientist and biology class was early 80s. Period of time I'm still trying to forget.

 

[GARRIGA]

Measurement is not the issue, but that’s not the way, IMO.

A true doc test is not hard to send out for.

Organic Carbon analysis | AWQC

Optimise water treatment processes with our dissolved organic carbon (DOC), biodegradable dissolved organic carbon (BDOC), total organic carbon (TOC) and total carbon (TC) testing services.

www.awqc.com.au

Point being there's a means to evaluate success. Bigger point. Do we really care?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

it’s just not realistic to think a cryptic zone will remove all doc. It isn’t even sensible to think sponges want to eat all doc, even if the tank was filled with nothing else but sponges.

 

[CHSUB]

That canister filter ran 24/7 can collect and decompose detritus and carbon dosing or running a Fuge can minimize algae although in the end CUC best suited for that task. WC wasn't needed for that.

Don't think that's a healthy pot if you're smelling sulfur.

This is what I'm describing and similar to hydroponics for growing both fish and plants for food.

Mangroves do much better if planted in soil vs not. I have both, soil planted grow, in my estimation, 10x faster than not.

 

[GARRIGA]

Fair enough. Why do we care about DOC since it seems WC the only viably accepted means of removing it as if there's a mandatory need to remove it?

Vintage going on a decade of accumulating DOC not removed by sponges and algae and he does no WC therefore does he have a ticking time bomb and just lucky he hasn't hit the tipping point or there's no there there?

 

[GARRIGA]

Mangroves do much better if planted in soil vs not. I have both, soil planted grow, in my estimation, 10x faster than not.

But neither should smell like sulfur or am I missing something :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[VintageReefer]

it’s just not realistic to think a cryptic zone will remove all doc. It isn’t even sensible to think sponges want to eat all doc, even if the tank was filled with nothing else but sponges.

Not “all”

Just something that helps

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Fair enough. Why do we care about DOC since it seems WC the only viably accepted means of removing it as if there's a mandatory need to remove it?

Vintage going on a decade of accumulating DOC not removed by sponges and algae and he does no WC therefore does he have a ticking time bomb and just lucky he hasn't hit the tipping point or there's no there there?

Skimmers and GAC both demonstrably reduce doc. So do products like Purigen.

Yellowing of the water and reduced light penetration are both clear effects of doc.

Other effects are less clear or perhaps specific to certain setups, such as allelopathy.

 

[CHSUB]

But neither should smell like sulfur or am I missing something

The pot is stagnant water and a 10” layer of organic potting soil with a single betta. It would completely be expected sulfur would be produced. This is why I do weekly WC.

 

[Lasse]

it’s just not realistic to think a cryptic zone will remove all doc

Is it realistic that a daily WC of around 1 % will remove all doc? Totally independent of the daily input of organic matter (food)?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[GARRIGA]

Skimmers and GAC both demonstrably reduce doc. So do products like Purigen.

Yellowing of the water and reduced light penetration are both clear effects of doc.

Other effects are less clear or perhaps specific to certain setups, such as allelopathy.

Therefore means other than WC solve DOC and guessing ozone in place of GAC as far as yellowing or my persistent wanting to use OH? I'm not running a skimmer but have access to Purigen.

Allelopathy new news to me but looked it up and way more involved then I'm wanting to get involved. Should I be concerned and if yes is there a remedy for this?

Based on this response I'm putting DOC to bed as something I should be concerned with needing a WC. Outside of Allelopathy (I'll never spell that right again :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing: ). Am I wrong?

Now I'm not sure why I even need sponges.

 

[GARRIGA]

The pot is stagnant water and a 10” layer of organic potting soil with a single betta. It would completely be expected sulfur would be produced. This is why I do weekly WC.

Know next to nothing on terrestrial plants but have never smelled sulfur using them as filtration in both fresh and salt (macroalgae). Wife and mother in law keep plants. I stay away from them. The plants. Not wife and mother :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

I know you said they grow faster on dirt but is the Betta there because it's secondary to goal such as source of nitrogen? Just curious.

 

[VintageReefer]

Therefore means other than WC solve DOC and guessing ozone in place of GAC as far as yellowing or my persistent wanting to use OH? I'm not running a skimmer but have access to Purigen.

Allelopathy new news to me but looked it up and way more involved then I'm wanting to get involved. Should I be concerned and if yes is there a remedy for this?

Based on this response I'm putting DOC to bed as something I should be concerned with needing a WC. Outside of Allelopathy (I'll never spell that right again :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing: ). Am I wrong?

Now I'm not sure why I even need sponges.

I don’t think you ever need to worry about them so long as you have some means of addressing them.

Weekly or monthly 10-20% water changes still leaves 80-90% behind, if, they are distributed evenly in the aquarium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is it realistic that a daily WC of around 1 % will remove all doc? Totally independent of the daily input of organic matter (food)?

Sincerely Lasse

No, certainly not. But unlike all other methods we might use, it removes every doc of any type in the water to the extent of the water change.