Arguing against the arguments against stuff!

[hart24601]

Well, I figured a few would probably take it in a not-so-good way. My "rants" are just that- stream of consciousness ideas that are in my head...honest, open, and often distasteful to some. Please don't take this as "hate"- because that's not my style...I apologize if this came off that way. "Condescending" is a word I can say I have NEVER heard ascribed to any of my writing in 17 years, so it's a new one! Seems a bit off, really. In fact, if you look back on my body of work and talks and such, most of it is self-deprecating, because as The Rev will tell you- no human is perfect. That being said, I am generally writing this stuff because it's something somebody challenged me on or as you woful say, "hated on me" about... And yeah, I've ran a ton of tanks in addition to that little coral warehouse we had, and have played with a lot of ideas. I don't claim to have the answers to everything, which is EXACTLY why I open this up to discussion- and I appreciate your viewpoint, though I respectfully and humbly disagree- and simultaneously apologized if offense was taken as a result of my piece. And trust me, there are a lot of ways to get macroalage into almost any sumpless system...Ya' know, you can grow it in the sand, if all else fails, now that I think about it. So I take away my free pass to the sumpless tanks now, to ;Shamefullyembarrased

Maybe I am kind of a jerk?

Seriously- thanks for the feedback and let's keep the discussion going!

-Scott

No worries!


So here is an old pic of a system I had. No sand, no macro algae at all (not even the dreaded reactor). I'm not exactly sure what more I could possibly hope for by adding macro or substrate or even MH or T5 (since that comes up all the time). It's also the system that I won the acro growout challenge with here on reef2reef. I have a wide variety of coral species in there, good color, and good enough growth to win competitions. I fully understand if someone like or chooses to use something else, but I see little reason to do so with this system. Like I said now more than ever it seems clear there are many ways to have a great tank.

You ever seen a reef with rock bottoms?

 

[Scott Fellman]

No worries!


So here is an old pic of a system I had. No sand, no macro algae at all (not even the dreaded reactor). I'm not exactly sure what more I could possibly hope for by adding macro or substrate or even MH or T5 (since that comes up all the time). It's also the system that I won the acro growout challenge with here on reef2reef. I have a wide variety of coral species in there, good color, and good enough growth to win competitions. I fully understand if someone like or chooses to use something else, but I see little reason to do so with this system. Like I said now more than ever it seems clear there are many ways to have a great tank.

You ever seen a reef with rock bottoms?

It's very beautiful! And you are right..."if it aint broke.." Having maintained bare bottom raceways, I can appreciate the elegance of bare bottom systems, don't get me wrong! And yeas, actually, I did a rubble bottom tank before, and it was really successful. Glad you mentioned it, because that was another type of system I'd LOVE to see more of...Grew corals like mad, had lots of interstitial life- and you could go 60-75x capacity on flow without any issues! Again- a million ways to do it...and no right or wrong way. Of course, if I don't like it, it's stupid... j/k

Thanks for sharing!

Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

I couldn't agree more with this article. A traditional refugium, works great, adds biodiversity, reduces nutrients and provides free food for my Tangs and other inhabitants. (well, the initial purchase of the algae wasn't free, but its the gift that keeps on giving).

Keeping things simple makes our aquatic ecosystems easier to maintain and... we are much more apt to keep up on weekly maintenance when kept simple. When adding gadget upon gadget it makes things more complicated to maintain and laziness ensues. Don't get me wrong, new whiz-bang shiny gadgets are cool... but the new shiny object factor goes away fast when frequent maintenance is needed on said gadget(s). Been there, done that and have the tee shirt to prove it. Also, keeping things simple allows more time to actually enjoy our displays and their inhabitants.

Yes, simplicity can take a myriad of forms, and it sometimes- not always, but sometimes- can create amazing outcomes. I think it would be nice, to see more systems that replicate, aesthetically and functionally- many aspects of a natural reef. I have a hunch that you don't need a lot of fancy gear to do the job...just work, observation, patience, and understanding. No real shortcuts, right?

 

[vlangel]

Loved this article Scott. Ha ha, I remember when a natural fuge with sand/mud and macros were cutting edge. I have sort of been stuck in that era of reefing, (maybe because there are no shiny gadgets that require buttons pushed in the proper sequence to make them work- I am a bit tech challenged). I love sandbeds too, (especially DSB) but currently do not have one because as a seahorse keeper I find a bb tank safer for ponies. I do however have a DSB in my refugium. I have zero nitrates and zillions of pods, (maybe a slight exaggeration). Yes I throw a lot of macro algae away but its kind of like pruning in a garden and I enjoy it. Once in a while I take some attractive macro algaes to a lfs and get store credit and that works for me also.

Anyway, I feel validated as a reefer instead of antiquated, ha ha. So thank you!

 

[Scott Fellman]

Loved this article Scott. Ha ha, I remember when a natural fuge with sand/mud and macros were cutting edge. I have sort of been stuck in that era of reefing, (maybe because there are no shiny gadgets that require buttons pushed in the proper sequence to make them work- I am a bit tech challenged). I love sandbeds too, (especially DSB) but currently do not have one because as a seahorse keeper I find a bb tank safer for ponies. I do however have a DSB in my refugium. I have zero nitrates and zillions of pods, (maybe a slight exaggeration). Yes I throw a lot of macro algae away but its kind of like pruning in a garden and I enjoy it. Once in a while I take some attractive macro algaes to a lfs and get store credit and that works for me also.

Anyway, I feel validated as a reefer instead of antiquated, ha ha. So thank you!

Thanks for the kind words... Absolutely, you are not antiquated! Like we've discussed, techniques and equipment tastes may change, but nature always works. It's how we adapt and work with nature that makes the difference. And, as I sort of postulated before, I think that the reason some of these ideas were trashed after the "first iterations" is that we didn't' quite have a grasp on all of the angles, technique, and equipment to make managing such systems easier for everyone...I think it's different now...and we're a decade or more further along on the experience thing, too!

And there is A LOT more to learn.

Thanks for contributing to the evolving "body of work" that is reefkeeping!

Scott

 

[BluewaterLa]

I'll stick to throwing money and gadgets at my tank while asking for all the quick fixes to my problems, thank you very much sir.
Just picking your nose man haha.
I can say that I enjoy your articles, write ups and rants. I as well am an old salt been in this hobby for over 20 years and seen a ton of ''new '' gadgets come and go along with changing methodology. Its all about chasing another persons success or the latest trend in our hobby today for sure, None of this can replace the trials and tribulations of actually learning about the ecosystem you choose to create.
Far too many jump into this hobby thinking if they can just skip that cycle or ugly phase all will be golden paths to complete tank nirvana, Most experienced folks know this to be a stage of ignorant bliss or wishful thinking.
Nothing can replace actual experience and learning from ones mistakes pr learning how to work through a ''problem'' within the tank. Some of the most successful reef tanks and Reefers I know still to this day keep it simple and keep their tank stable.
Thanks for the Rant, argument and thoughts.
Good luck and happy Reefing
BluewaterLa/ Mike

 

[Paul B]

Scott is of course correct that all systems can work and work well. I think there are some things that we can use such as algae, bacteria and parasites to make our systems function better. (the parasites are to controversial so forget those for now )
Sand is one of those things that IMO can help us (I actually use gravel, but that is just big sand, kind of)
"Robert Straughn" one of the original Fathers of Salt water aquariums (and my Mentor) listed sand, or a UG filter as a necessity, but his thinking of it was a little flawed. He thought of sand on a UG filter as a particle filter and didn't realize the benefits of the sand for hosting bacteria or other lower life forms. In Mr Straughn's defense, we didn't keep any corals at that time in the 50s.
Sand or gravel, IMO just allows the two dimensional glass bottom of our tanks to become multi dimensional and exponentially multiply the bio diversity capacity of our tank. We only have so much surface area in a tank and a substrate will greatly enlarge that space allowing much more life. If that is what you are looking for of course.
I personally try to have as much microscope life as I can fit, but that is only for my particular tank. A tank full of corals, depending on the types of corals may not need or want such diversity.

 

[Greaps]

I think some have moved away from refugiums due to inconsistent advice for how to light it, how much flow, how large, how often to harvest, and the mix of goals, results, and expectations from said refugiums. A lot of people want easy to replicate successful reefs. Eliminating the many extra variables a refugium adds makes this simpler. I like the idea of a refugium, especially with the results BRS has shown, but at the same time it is very exciting when we find a new showcase tank without all the extras.

 

[keddre]

One thing I do that is successful for me, so far, is I run a “polluted” tank. By over-dosing on phytoplankton and zooplankton, I am getting nice growth on my mushrooms and filter feeders...at least until my lta went on a stroll. Now they are just recovering quickly

 

[Scott Fellman]

Scott is of course correct that all systems can work and work well. I think there are some things that we can use such as algae, bacteria and parasites to make our systems function better. (the parasites are to controversial so forget those for now )
Sand is one of those things that IMO can help us (I actually use gravel, but that is just big sand, kind of)
"Robert Straughn" one of the original Fathers of Salt water aquariums (and my Mentor) listed sand, or a UG filter as a necessity, but his thinking of it was a little flawed. He thought of sand on a UG filter as a particle filter and didn't realize the benefits of the sand for hosting bacteria or other lower life forms. In Mr Straughn's defense, we didn't keep any corals at that time in the 50s.
Sand or gravel, IMO just allows the two dimensional glass bottom of our tanks to become multi dimensional and exponentially multiply the bio diversity capacity of our tank. We only have so much surface area in a tank and a substrate will greatly enlarge that space allowing much more life. If that is what you are looking for of course.
I personally try to have as much microscope life as I can fit, but that is only for my particular tank. A tank full of corals, depending on the types of corals may not need or want such diversity.

Outstanding...Had no idea Straughn was one of your mentors! This guy was like Sprung, Dilbeek, Yaiullo, Yoshi, Fenner- all rolled into one! And I agree about your take on substrate...and I suppose one could argue that sump space, plumbing, etc. are all "fair game" for recruiting biodiversity in our systems, too! I am curious- if you were setting up a new reef tank today, having a huge "database" on long term reef maintenance- how would you approach it? (not an easy question, but when you have time some day...curious!)

As always, thanks for your insights!

Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

I'll stick to throwing money and gadgets at my tank while asking for all the quick fixes to my problems, thank you very much sir.
Just picking your nose man haha.
I can say that I enjoy your articles, write ups and rants. I as well am an old salt been in this hobby for over 20 years and seen a ton of ''new '' gadgets come and go along with changing methodology. Its all about chasing another persons success or the latest trend in our hobby today for sure, None of this can replace the trials and tribulations of actually learning about the ecosystem you choose to create.
Far too many jump into this hobby thinking if they can just skip that cycle or ugly phase all will be golden paths to complete tank nirvana, Most experienced folks know this to be a stage of ignorant bliss or wishful thinking.
Nothing can replace actual experience and learning from ones mistakes pr learning how to work through a ''problem'' within the tank. Some of the most successful reef tanks and Reefers I know still to this day keep it simple and keep their tank stable.
Thanks for the Rant, argument and thoughts.
Good luck and happy Reefing
BluewaterLa/ Mike

I think it's kind of cool that a good percentage of the reef keeping population can still embrace patience- and hopefully continue to impart the necessity of learning the fundamentals to the new generation of reefers! And as an addendum, some of the most successful reefers I know screwed up a TON of stuff before they achieved their success...Now, not always mandatory, but it shows some impatient reefers that deploying patient, persistence, learning, and overcoming adversity DO work!

Woosh!

Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

I think some have moved away from refugiums due to inconsistent advice for how to light it, how much flow, how large, how often to harvest, and the mix of goals, results, and expectations from said refugiums. A lot of people want easy to replicate successful reefs. Eliminating the many extra variables a refugium adds makes this simpler. I like the idea of a refugium, especially with the results BRS has shown, but at the same time it is very exciting when we find a new showcase tank without all the extras.

I agree...A lot of good stuff in your statement. I think- Okay- I FEEL- that the idea of a refugium is as much an homage to my love of biodiversity in reefs as anything else. I think that other than the plumbing and obvious failure points of any piece of equipment we add- refugiums included- that the concept of increased natural biodiversity in a reef tank IS the simplest way to go...Yet exceedingly complex in its own way. Our "operating procedures" in a highly diverse system are actually simpler, IMHO...feed, change water, observe, harvest maroalgae...But yes, I love seeing different approaches, like the "Eco Reef Zero" thing that Jake (Adams) did a few years back- a small tank, simple sponge-type filter single coral, no substrate or anything else- 100% weekly water exchanges...and really successful...Not exactly the Li Chin Eng method of simplicity, but another way that does work...

Ain't this hobby cool?

Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

One thing I do that is successful for me, so far, is I run a “polluted” tank. By over-dosing on phytoplankton and zooplankton, I am getting nice growth on my mushrooms and filter feeders...at least until my lta went on a stroll. Now they are just recovering quickly

I think that's a key to NPS tanks for sure...walking the tightrope between a lot of food inputs and enough nutrient export to avoid disaster! And I am actually very fascinated with high bioload type systems, particularly Mangrove systems...playing with that sort of "richness" found in these habitats- mud, sediment, decomposing leaves, epiphytic materials, etc...If we can manage that, imagine the success we could have with some more fussy reef creatures?

;Shamefullyembarrased Scott

 

[Big G]

Outstanding...Had no idea Straughn was one of your mentors! This guy was like Sprung, Dilbeek, Yaiullo, Yoshi, Fenner- all rolled into one! And I agree about your take on substrate...and I suppose one could argue that sump space, plumbing, etc. are all "fair game" for recruiting biodiversity in our systems, too! I am curious- if you were setting up a new reef tank today, having a huge "database" on long term reef maintenance- how would you approach it? (not an easy question, but when you have time some day...curious!)

As always, thanks for your insights!

Scott

I like how you guys are making me think! I am starting up a new mixed reef tank as we speak. My focus is on the micro level. Good mix of sands, shells, etc. for a base. Slowly aged dry rock. Lots of thinking and introductions of phytoplankton, copepods, and . . . plants in the DT. You just don't see a lot of plants in many DTs. Sea grass for example. But also thinking ahead to corals, I'm struggling with the plethora of choices. Lots of info out there, almost too much. Currently pondering "invasive" corals like xenias for example. Their fast growth intrigues me that something very, very good is happening on a micro level. How can that be a "bad thing" for the tank?

 

[andrewkw]

Sometimes you just want to try something new. I'd consider myself slightly more than medium experienced. Not been in the hobby as long as you guys but I've had a reef since 2005. I've tried medium sand, super shallow, sugar sized, course, medium course even 10"+ in a tank that had garden eels. After I moved long distance I setup my tank bare bottom. While I agree it looks worse than a sand bed the tank has been doing quite well. The way the flow in my tank is positioned 90% of the detritus ends up in one corner so weekly I remove it via water change. Now my reef isn't super low nutrient by any means and I don't try and get every spec out. The overflow / sump still has some ect. I have enough live rock and a marine pure block so I have adequate filtration and plenty of biodiversity. I still see mysid shrimp swimming around at night or in the overflow box, pods, copepods, bristleworms in the filter sock every week ect. That being said a distinction between my bare bottom tank and a lot of the new ones is I started with 10+ year old live rock that 90% was always live and never dry.

There are so many ways to be successful which is great but there are so many ways to be unsuccessful long term which isn't so great. I still think a sand bed looks better and if it's properly cared for it can be great but you can still have a diverse tank without one. One other interesting point : I'm not a diver but recently I listened to a talk Jason Fox gave where he mentions when he collects corals they are never near sand which is why he doesn't run sand in his display so even in the ocean it can be different.

 

[Scott Fellman]

I like how you guys are making me think! I am starting up a new mixed reef tank as we speak. My focus is on the micro level. Good mix of sands, shells, etc. for a base. Slowly aged dry rock. Lots of thinking and introductions of phytoplankton, copepods, and . . . plants in the DT. You just don't see a lot of plants in many DTs. Sea grass for example. But also thinking ahead to corals, I'm struggling with the plethora of choices. Lots of info out there, almost too much. Currently pondering "invasive" corals like xenias for example. Their fast growth intrigues me that something very, very good is happening on a micro level. How can that be a "bad thing" for the tank?

A great way of looking at things..I suppose the argument could be made that one organisms dominates all of the others in a closed system, through either growth or allelopathy, and that can be a not-so-good thing. Then again, isn't it amazing that we can actually grow corals or other marine life forms to the point where it can be "problematic" for the whole system? Just a couple of decades ago, we were stoked just to keep stuff alive! Monospecific coral tanks are another intriguing (but almost impossible for the hardcore, "Want it all!" reefer to do) concept that would eliminate this issue!

Choices!

Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

Sometimes you just want to try something new. I'd consider myself slightly more than medium experienced. Not been in the hobby as long as you guys but I've had a reef since 2005. I've tried medium sand, super shallow, sugar sized, course, medium course even 10"+ in a tank that had garden eels. After I moved long distance I setup my tank bare bottom. While I agree it looks worse than a sand bed the tank has been doing quite well. The way the flow in my tank is positioned 90% of the detritus ends up in one corner so weekly I remove it via water change. Now my reef isn't super low nutrient by any means and I don't try and get every spec out. The overflow / sump still has some ect. I have enough live rock and a marine pure block so I have adequate filtration and plenty of biodiversity. I still see mysid shrimp swimming around at night or in the overflow box, pods, copepods, bristleworms in the filter sock every week ect. That being said a distinction between my bare bottom tank and a lot of the new ones is I started with 10+ year old live rock that 90% was always live and never dry.

There are so many ways to be successful which is great but there are so many ways to be unsuccessful long term which isn't so great. I still think a sand bed looks better and if it's properly cared for it can be great but you can still have a diverse tank without one. One other interesting point : I'm not a diver but recently I listened to a talk Jason Fox gave where he mentions when he collects corals they are never near sand which is why he doesn't run sand in his display so even in the ocean it can be different.

I agree...change is fun!

The detritus thing is interesting to me...becuase I've always felt that we have been overly freaked out about getting every speck of the stuff...I mean, it's food for someone. I remember at UC, we initially kept our raceways so spotless, you could give birth in them! And our corals looked anemic and not so colorful. Once we allowed a little detritus to remain, voila! Stuff looked great and grew faster! That experience stays in my mind...Obviously, excesses are potentially problematic, but moderation is not a bad thing!

And lots of ways to look at this stuff! Looking forward to more discussions!

Thanks,

Scott

 

[andrewkw]

For me the detritus thing is a long term thing. Yes it's food for something but in a lot of cases in my opinion our tanks produce too much of it in a closed system. I remove from the display tank only, and occasionally from the overflow box and sump. By occasionally I mean maybe 2-3 times from the overflow and annually from the sump. I remove lets say 2 handfuls of detritus a week. If I left that for a year it would probably be okay but in 2 years I'd have more then 100x. Since I'm doing this weekly some detritus is being eaten weekly and the "2 handfuls" is what is left over at the end of the week. Once you get to larger numbers that's when the real issues start to happen. Regardless of what you do with a sand bed it likely wont cause problems for years. Could be 2 years if you do nothing, could be 5 years if you maintain it but not well enough. This is where remote deep sand beds come in which also seem to have fallen out of favor. After a few years you can disconnect and start over. Or have 2 going at different ages. This type of long term planning is too much for most but personally I plan on having a reef until I am too old to maintain it, or longer if I can afford to have it serviced as an old man. That being said I am not in my dream scenario yet. I know I will have my current tank or one like it if something happens for the next few years. At which time I'll reevaluate my life which includes my reef tanks as they are a part of my life.

This is just what's working in my current tank. Everyone's tank is different and I probably could make it work with sand in the tank, for now though I'm happy with the results and most importantly the life in my tank is.

 

[keddre]

My favorite experiment that I’ve been dreaming for years is when I graduate college (only two more years), get a full time job and all that stuff, I want to set up an oddball 10’x5’x4’ tank with a 2’ sandbed which would be hidden by the custom stand. With this tank I hope to observe my burrowing fish in a larger and deeper sand bed. Plus I want to see the development of an ultra deep sand bed

 

[siggy]

Someone read my mind with the rock rubble substrate for a shallow reef tank. I was also thinking of using calcium reactor media, the small rounded rubble would settle nicely and still provide some flow but the cost to fill a 6'x 2' @1.5" made that unrealistic. Does anyone tumble LR rubble ?