ATO ideas. Gravity or float switch?

[Hockeypunk1]

I recently plumbed a 100 gallon rubbermaid stock tank into my dt. The stock tank is in my basement which is slowly becoming a fush room. My issue is I went from a 15 gallon sump to about 65-70 in the rubbermaid. I have a hydor ato which was excellent for the 15 gallon, and I plan on using it for a frag qt. Unfortunately I didn't put baffles in the rubbermaid. The surface area is too large for the hydor and my aqua lifter, the pump stops after 5 minutes. Anyway I was thinking about either using gravity with a float valve or setting up float switches with my apex. I really like the idea of the gravity fed float valve and I have all the parts has anyone used this method?

 

[p7willm]

I would control it with the Apex because it is easy to add redundancy to catch failures. Stop the ATO if the pH is bad, the salinity is bad, a high water switch closes, add a timer to stop it if it does not fill the tank in the expected time. Keep the water off the floor.

 

[Hockeypunk1]

I would control it with the Apex because it is easy to add redundancy to catch failures. Stop the ATO if the pH is bad, the salinity is bad, a high water switch closes, add a timer to stop it if it does not fill the tank in the expected time. Keep the water off the floor.

I like the idea of using the apex. The only issue I might have would be the large surface area (1/2 inch drop in the water line is around 2-3 gallons) I've never used a float switch so I'm unsure how far they drop before the switch triggers.

 

[reefwiser]

I used float switches for years before they got around to making ATO's with pumps and float valve. You can adjust the amount of drop that you will allow with the switch so it is real sensitive to water level if you wish. The biggest issue is making sure it is working. They don't do good with Kalkwasser in the water as it will clog the needle outlet.

 

[Hockeypunk1]

I used float switches for years before they got around to making ATO's with pumps and float valve. You can adjust the amount of drop that you will allow with the switch so it is real sensitive to water level if you wish. The biggest issue is making sure it is working. They don't do good with Kalkwasser in the water as it will clog the needle outlet.

Thanks! That answers a few of my questions. I do use kalk but I'm slowly transitioning to 2 part.

 

[Skydvr]

I made my own ATO using cheap float switches from Amazon. It is pretty simple to set up and the variance in water level is pretty minimal.

If you decide to go with gravity fed, you can always add an inexpensive solenoid valve to the line and have the Apex shut off flow if salinity gets too low or if the level gets too high in the sump. Or use the Apex to control flow and have the float be the backup. Although if you could find solenoid valves that were inexpensive enough, but not overly cheap, you could use two with one as a backup and float switches for the Apex.

I like redundancy with automated systems like that. I've had failures, even with backups in place.

 

[Hockeypunk1]

I made my own ATO using cheap float switches from Amazon. It is pretty simple to set up and the variance in water level is pretty minimal.

If you decide to go with gravity fed, you can always add an inexpensive solenoid valve to the line and have the Apex shut off flow if salinity gets too low or if the level gets too high in the sump. Or use the Apex to control flow and have the float be the backup. Although if you could find solenoid valves that were inexpensive enough, but not overly cheap, you could use two with one as a backup and float switches for the Apex.

I like redundancy with automated systems like that. I've had failures, even with backups in place.

Haha! The possibilities are endless! Do you have a picture of how you mounted the amazon float switches?

 

[Skydvr]

I'll see about grabbing a pic later.

I used some cheap lexan from the hardware store to make a bracket. I had some solvent for the last one, but there is silicone for plastic that works well (it was right near the lexan). Here's my finger painting drawing of it.

The back is open and I put needlepoint mesh across the bottom to keep snails out. I don't remember if I left the back open to allow for cleaning of the float switches or if I had an issue with water wicking up between the glass and the bracket. It was pretty quick to build.

The float switches had orings with them, which aren't really necessary for this application, but were handy for setting one float switch lower than the other. You can wire them in series or set up the Apex or control box to monitor both. If both switches are closed (floats are all the way down, water level is low) the relay activates and sends power to the pump. When the lower float switch opens, the pump shuts off. The second switch is a backup that cuts out the relay if the first one fails shut.
The only failure modes that would keep the pump running is if both floats get gummed up or if the lower fails closed and something happens to the backup float (monthly cleaning and testing that the floats actuate properly minimizes that risk) or if the relay contacts were to weld shut, but I am running a 3.4W air pump, which is less than .03A, on a 5A relay so that risk is minimal.

 

[Hockeypunk1]

I'll see about grabbing a pic later.

I used some cheap lexan from the hardware store to make a bracket. I had some solvent for the last one, but there is silicone for plastic that works well (it was right near the lexan). Here's my finger painting drawing of it.

The back is open and I put needlepoint mesh across the bottom to keep snails out. I don't remember if I left the back open to allow for cleaning of the float switches or if I had an issue with water wicking up between the glass and the bracket. It was pretty quick to build.

The float switches had orings with them, which aren't really necessary for this application, but were handy for setting one float switch lower than the other. You can wire them in series or set up the Apex or control box to monitor both. If both switches are closed (floats are all the way down, water level is low) the relay activates and sends power to the pump. When the lower float switch opens, the pump shuts off. The second switch is a backup that cuts out the relay if the first one fails shut.
The only failure modes that would keep the pump running is if both floats get gummed up or if the lower fails closed and something happens to the backup float (monthly cleaning and testing that the floats actuate properly minimizes that risk) or if the relay contacts were to weld shut, but I am running a 3.4W air pump, which is less than .03A, on a 5A relay so that risk is minimal.

Cool, thanks for the ideas. I think I'll try the float switches. My hydor only kicks on about every other day and then the alarm goes off because it takes the aqualifter longer than 5 minutes to top up. I've been topping off manually because I don't want that big of a swing.

 

[ithk21620]

I recently plumbed a 100 gallon rubbermaid stock tank into my dt. The stock tank is in my basement which is slowly becoming a fush room. My issue is I went from a 15 gallon sump to about 65-70 in the rubbermaid. I have a hydor ato which was excellent for the 15 gallon, and I plan on using it for a frag qt. Unfortunately I didn't put baffles in the rubbermaid. The surface area is too large for the hydor and my aqua lifter, the pump stops after 5 minutes. Anyway I was thinking about either using gravity with a float valve or setting up float switches with my apex. I really like the idea of the gravity fed float valve and I have all the parts has anyone used this method?

I use gravity for my stock tank and it has worked great for 5+ years.

I completely tore my tank down and restarted it this summer but I was using this method before. Here are some pictures from when I redid the fish room. I can get better pictures later.

The top tank is RODI and the bottom is Saltwater. There is a white 1/4" line ran from the tank to the other side of the room. (Not shown)

The stock tank on the other side of the room.

I will get detailed pictures when I get home.

 

[bif24701]

I use one BRS 50ml pump that is controlled via my APEX to turn on 4 min every 1/2 hour. It's perfect, no other parts to fail and cause huge issues. I put Kalk in my ATO, it's wonderful.

I do like the new optical sensors that APEX has with the FMK module. That seems much safer and has all kinds of other uses too, like container low level alerts.

 

[Hockeypunk1]

I use gravity for my stock tank and it has worked great for 5+ years.

I completely tore my tank down and restarted it this summer but I was using this method before. Here are some pictures from when I redid the fish room. I can get better pictures later.

The top tank is RODI and the bottom is Saltwater. There is a white 1/4" line ran from the tank to the other side of the room. (Not shown)

The stock tank on the other side of the room.

I will get detailed pictures when I get home.

This is exactly what I was looking for. I would definitely appreciate some more pics. That looks like an awesome build. I can tell it was well thought out. I have a gravity float valve laying around. To me it seems this method would keep salinity the most stable because it would add water as it evaporates

 

[Hockeypunk1]

I use one BRS 50ml pump that is controlled via my APEX to turn on 4 min every 1/2 hour. It's perfect, no other parts to fail and cause huge issues. I put Kalk in my ATO, it's wonderful.

I do like the new optical sensors that APEX has with the FMK module. That seems much safer and has all kinds of other uses too, like container low level alerts.

I thought about using one of the extra dosers on my jebao dosing pump but I had no clue how much to dose and how often. Did you do the math or was it trial and error?

 

[Flippers4pups]

http://autotopoff.com/

I've used these for years and years with no problems. Very reliable.

I use kalkwasser in my ATO, so no float valves for me. Had one stick open when I first started the hobby, flooded my sump and floor. Never again.

 

[ithk21620]

Here are some better pictures:

Mixing station and RODI top off tank. The white 1/4" line runs to the float valve in the sump.

I do however have a couple float switches that I connect to my Apex so if something would go on it will alert me.

One float switch in the sump that will shut off all the pumps if the sump is low and one that is in the RO tank that lets me know if the tank is low.

I know how long my top off tank lasts before I need to fill it so if I get an alarm I know something is wrong. But if it is a major leak the apex will immediately shut every thing down.

Fish room isn't finished yet, working on installing a ceiling so I can keep the moisture out of the rest of the basement.

 

[ithk21620]

This is exactly what I was looking for. I would definitely appreciate some more pics. That looks like an awesome build. I can tell it was well thought out. I have a gravity float valve laying around. To me it seems this method would keep salinity the most stable because it would add water as it evaporates

I have never had my float switch fail and I love how simple it is. I ran this setup for the last 5 year without the failsafes. I just recently started adding the float switches.

 

[Flippers4pups]

The only thing that spooks me with gravity fed float valves is if anything gets in-between the float body and its seat, ( algae, snail, calcium build up, anything....... ) it will flood the whole contents of the top off reservoir into the sump/DT, causing your water chemistry to go south, FAST. The only way I'd do this again is to have a top off reservoir that holds only a couple of gallons.

Some people run their RO/DI directly to a float valve in their sump as a way to top off. Same scenario, but way worse! Float valve stays open, even the smallest amount and the RO/DI runs infinitely till caught. Tank crash! (Plus it's hard on your membrane, DI.....)

Unless you have a solenoid shut off valve between your reservoir and your float valve that can be controlled with a Apex AND have a water level sensor on the Apex to alert you if the float valve has failed ( which seems to me ALOT to go through to have a reliable ATO) just doesn't seem worth the hassle and risk IMHO.

I'm not trying to sell or persuade anyone to use what I use, just trying to explain the risks.

 

[ithk21620]

The only thing that spooks me with gravity fed float valves is if anything gets in-between the float body and its seat, ( algae, snail, calcium build up, anything....... ) it will flood the whole contents of the top off reservoir into the sump/DT, causing your water chemistry to go south, FAST. The only way I'd do this again is to have a top off reservoir that holds only a couple of gallons.

Some people run their RO/DI directly to a float valve in their sump as a way to top off. Same scenario, but way worse! Float valve stays open, even the smallest amount and the RO/DI runs infinitely till caught. Tank crash! (Plus it's hard on your membrane, DI.....)

Unless you have a solenoid shut off valve between your reservoir and your float valve that can be controlled with a Apex AND have a water level sensor on the Apex to alert you if the float valve has failed ( which seems to me ALOT to go through to have a reliable ATO) just doesn't seem worth the hassle and risk IMHO.

I'm not trying to sell or persuade anyone to use what I use, just trying to explain the risks.

I totally get what you are saying but I have about 160 total gallons of water in my system and if the entire contents of the RO tank would dump into my sump it wouldn't overflow and my salinity doesn't change enough for me to worry too much. I would be looking at about 1.022 and that isn't going to cause huge issues

 

[Flippers4pups]

Small pump at the bottom of the cone tank. Water level lower than the sump water level.

Double redundant electronic float switch with snail guard.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I totally get what you are saying but I have about 160 total gallons of water in my system and if the entire contents of the RO tank would dump into my sump it wouldn't overflow and my salinity doesn't change enough for me to worry too much. I would be looking at about 1.022 and that isn't going to cause huge issues

Same here if mine gliched for some reason. 200 gallons with a 16 gallon top off, but I keep mostly SPS and a huge SG change plus alkalinity swing would be a bleaching event for me. There's still a risk, but not as bad in my book. The double redundant switch makes me sleep better at night and on vacation. Better, not 100%. Lol