Bacteria and water changes

[rmorris_14]

Ok. I have a new Evo 13.5 heavily stocked with Mexican turbos, nassaurius, and hermits. There is not a natural food source developed yet so I have been feeding them. The most food comes from the nori sheets I give the Mexican turbos. They eat and poop ALOT. The tank has live sand, media from DT, and added bactiv8 week one. Started having high ammonia, so I have done a couple water changes and added fritz zyme 9 after. The seachem ammonia alert keeps creeping back up to the alert status within a day of the water change.
1. if I do 5 gallon water changes, am I taking out some of the bacteria I added and therefore need to replace?
2. Would it be better to just keep adding the bacteria and let the ammonia ride out?
I had another thread going when my ammonia first spiked but now I’m not 100% sure on the best course of action to keep my little buddies healthy until they are ready to go to the DT tank. Partial water changes vs adding more bacteria or a combo of the two.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ok. I have a new Evo 13.5 heavily stocked with Mexican turbos, nassaurius, and hermits. There is not a natural food source developed yet so I have been feeding them. The most food comes from the nori sheets I give the Mexican turbos. They eat and poop ALOT. The tank has live sand, media from DT, and added bactiv8 week one. Started having high ammonia, so I have done a couple water changes and added fritz zyme 9 after. The seachem ammonia alert keeps creeping back up to the alert status within a day of the water change.
1. if I do 5 gallon water changes, am I taking out some of the bacteria I added and therefore need to replace?
2. Would it be better to just keep adding the bacteria and let the ammonia ride out?
I had another thread going when my ammonia first spiked but now I’m not 100% sure on the best course of action to keep my little buddies healthy until they are ready to go to the DT tank. Partial water changes vs adding more bacteria or a combo of the two.

Ammonia alert and api test kits known for notorious false readings and likely your levels are higher
Take a water sample to a trusted LFS that does not use API test kits and have them test water for you and see what readings they come up with

 

[aSaltyKlown]

Good advice above. I would bet that the API is reading high.

No, the bacteria will not come out with the water. You have added enough bacteria especially with the 2nd dose of Fritz. Reading the other thread, follow the advice there. If it was my tank, I would do another WC and go ahead and add a fish, but you can certainly wait as mentioned on Friday. When using Fritz or other comparable bottled bac, you can add a fish the same day.

 

[rmorris_14]

Thanks for responding. This is actually going to be an invert and coral tank only. So I’m not concerned about adding fish. (Probably should have mentioned that) I just want to make sure I don’t kill the inverts that are currently in the tank with high ammonia and want to take the best steps to get to a point where I’m not constantly doing water changes every other day and adding bacteria. I’ve read the API test run high. It’s still reading about 1ppm and the seachem alert just started turning to the .05 alert color the last couple of days after I posted my previous thread. It went back to safe after water change yesterday but then this morning it was back to alert. I’ve cut back on feeding some and siphon out all the mexican turbo poop when I have done the water changes. Kind of feel like I have screwed this whole thing up. The process all started because I wanted to be responsible and have a seperate invert and coral quarantine tank so I don’t introduce bad things into my display and potentially hurt the fish. Now I kind of wish I would have just dropped them in and said a prayer lol.

 

[rmorris_14]

Ammonia alert and api test kits known for notorious false readings and likely your levels are higher
Take a water sample to a trusted LFS that does not use API test kits and have them test water for you and see what readings they come up with

Higher? Well that’s even more concerning! . Unfortunately, Petco is the only store near me. And driving over an hour to get my water tested isn’t something I can do soon.

 

[brandon429]

Stop testing for ammonia in a post cycle tank with non digital gear. Problem solved


its not that ceasing testing ignores a problem, it’s that you’re using gear that gives false reads and creates a false problem. The point of cycling is we lock bacteria onto surfaces where they can’t be removed.

cease buying and adding bottle bac in all post cycle reefs, the need doesn’t exist it’s wasting money. Ammonia cannot drift out of spec in a post cycle reef, it only appears so on non digital ammonia kits.


specifically: don’t test for ammonia and nitrite on post cycle reefs, those params can’t drift out of spec they stay locked in place. A bunch of dead fish left to rot is the only thing that can overcome ammonia control, and no testing is needed to remedy a bunch of dead fish, we’d remove them. Any tank that is five days past adding Fritz one time is cycled, water changes cannot undo any cycle. If you changed 100% of the water every morning with matching temp and salinity water, nothing would happen


the cheap non digital test kits might say something happened, but they’re wrong. Get a seneye if you’re still determined to test cycling info in a post cycle tank. It’ll be a waste of 190$ to measure a param we can already predict in any post cycle reef, but it’ll also reveal to you this inherent reliability and you’ll save money on bottle bac

 

[rmorris_14]

Stop testing for ammonia in a post cycle tank with non digital gear. Problem solved

cease buying and adding bottle bac in all post cycle reefs, the need doesn’t exist it’s wasting money. Ammonia cannot drift out of spec in a post cycle reef, it only appears so on non digital ammonia kits.

What constitutes a cycled tank? I guess my question is how do I know if I am a pre or post cycle. I started the tank on a Saturday and added the bacteria and inverts on Monday. I thought I’d be good between the bacteria, sand, and established media. Does that automatically cycle the tank? I hope that doesn’t come across snarky. I am genuinely interested in knowing the explanation.

 

[brandon429]

Hey can you post a pic of your tank I’ll match it with a work thread that will give closure. Using another reef as an example, to match yours.


I can already tell it will likely be Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread, Fritz cycles tanks in about 48 hours. I’ll also link for you fifteen full running reeftanks, some two years past cycling, where the cheap kits caused false alarm. Your ammonia isn’t high, it’s low and safe like Fritz and dr reef said coming up

if ammonia can’t be kept in control in a given setting it spirals up and out of control fast, like an animal without any kidney function. Fast loss not what we see in these posts- normal daily running

let’s see pics we can define ratios of surface area bioload multiple feed events proving the cycle is fine. If it wasn’t, your pic would be gray water and all dead animals in 24 hours.


the tank pic and the known timing after using 48 hour bacteria will take precedence over all non digital ammonia read outs. There isn’t one example of a failed cycle on the entire site, bottle bac is this good.


the key to catching false ammonia reading posts is the tank problem or animal loss is never in the title, it’s always a test kit reading among perfect tanks as the standout proof in false ammonia control issues. Those animals in groups make a ton of waste you’ve seen, carrying that for days is proof of cycle. It would crash were it not cycled. There is no such thing as halfway cycled there’s can carry life, or can’t. A clear line.

 

[rmorris_14]

Hey can you post a pic of your tank I’ll match it with a work thread that will give closure. Using another reef as an example, to match yours.


I can already tell it will likely be Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread, Fritz cycles tanks in about 48 hours. I’ll also link for you fifteen full running reeftanks, some two years past cycling, where the cheap kits caused false alarm. Your ammonia isn’t high like Vette said, it’s low and safe like Fritz and dr reef said coming up

let’s see pics we can define ratios of surface area bioload multiple feed events proving the cycle is fine. If it wasn’t, your pic would be gray water and all dead animals in 24 hours.


the tank pic and the known timing after using 48 hour bacteria will take precedence over all non digital ammonia read outs. There isn’t one example of a failed cycle on the entire site, bottle bac is this good.


the key to catching false ammonia reading posts is the tank problem or animal loss is never in the title, it’s always a test kit reading among perfect tanks as the standout proof in false ammonia control issues. Those animals in groups make a ton of waste you’ve seen, carrying that for days is proof of cycle. It would crash were it not cycled. There is no such thing as halfway cycled there’s can carry life, or can’t. A clear

This is not from today. I am at work and cant check on my little buddies until I get home tonight. Who hopefully They will still be doing well when I get home, according to your info

 

[rmorris_14]

This is not from today. I am at work and cant check on my little buddies until I get home tonight. Who hopefully They will still be doing well when I get home, according to your info

There are five Mexican turbos (in hindsight I should have just got the amount I planned on adding to my display tank) not the total amount I wanted to eventually have between both tanks, five or 6 nassarious, and maybe 8 small blue leg hermits

 

[rmorris_14]

There are five Mexican turbos (in hind site I should have just got the amount I planned on adding to my display tank) not the total amount I wanted to eventually have between both tanks, five or 6 nassarious, and maybe 8 small blue leg hermits

Edit, there might even be 6 turbos

 

[brandon429]

That’s literally the perfect way to bottle bac cycle a reef tank.

anything past the 48 hour mark means Fritz has adhered to all surfaces it’s specifically what Dr. Reef used to assess implantation time per major brand of bac. Sorry the thread is huge, we had a lot to review lol.

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Call me old school, back in the day we placed a deli shrimp in a tank to kick start the cycle. When tank reached 1.5-2 ppm ammonia we pulled it out and waited sometimes weeks to months for bacteria to colonize and drop ammonia and nitrites down to 0 to make tank safe for livestock. With recent...

www.reef2reef.com

I would not expect that fishless bioload to be much of a load test at all, all ratios are perfect. Snails are probably last to die of free ammonia if there was some, but if we scan any brand bottle bac cycling thread there aren’t any initial tank wipeouts on the whole site. Not any I can find, so there’s no pattern to suggest yours is off kilter. Every pattern suggests it’s perfect

nice job on quarantine fish before addition, rare effort there and it’ll help prevent disease losses by starting with that focus. Lastly, here’s the thread of eight pages and about forty examples of completely false ammonia concerns to round out the soapbox event:

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

included in that proof collection are seneye cycles compared to non digital kits, the non digitals register as warning/ alert and none of the seneyes ever do, that’s the difference between cheap and quality ammonia kits. The feed and bioload from that arrangement is perfect for cycling, the bottle bac is so strong fish can be carried right now but it’s better to wait on disease preps.


this cycle is done. No degree of water change can undo it, per the top link from Dr Reef where 100% water changes are the proof marker for each closed test.


nobody on this entire site can link one example of a failed Fritz cycle. It’s that good


100% of searchable examples are wins, heckuva ratio for making predictions in your tank.

 

[Dan_P]

Ok. I have a new Evo 13.5 heavily stocked with Mexican turbos, nassaurius, and hermits. There is not a natural food source developed yet so I have been feeding them. The most food comes from the nori sheets I give the Mexican turbos. They eat and poop ALOT. The tank has live sand, media from DT, and added bactiv8 week one. Started having high ammonia, so I have done a couple water changes and added fritz zyme 9 after. The seachem ammonia alert keeps creeping back up to the alert status within a day of the water change.
1. if I do 5 gallon water changes, am I taking out some of the bacteria I added and therefore need to replace?
2. Would it be better to just keep adding the bacteria and let the ammonia ride out?
I had another thread going when my ammonia first spiked but now I’m not 100% sure on the best course of action to keep my little buddies healthy until they are ready to go to the DT tank. Partial water changes vs adding more bacteria or a combo of the two.

What is the pH of the water?
What ammonia test kit are you using?
What does the ammonia test kit level say the ammonia is at?

By the way I have 16 Mexican turbos the size of plums in a 75 gallon aquarium. They eat one 8x8 inch sheet of dry seaweed everyday in about two hours. They are poop machines.

 

[rmorris_14]

What is the pH of the water?
What ammonia test kit are you using?
What does the ammonia test kit level say the ammonia is at?

By the way I have 16 Mexican turbos the size of plums in a 75 gallon aquarium. They eat one 8x8 inch sheet of dry seaweed everyday in about two hours. They are poop machines.

I only have API for a test kit.
I just ran the ph after looking at your message. See attached. I think it is falling somewhere between 7.4 and 7.8. Previous experience with the API ph compared to a LFS who checked my water of my display, indicated API runs a little lower than actual. There isn’t a lot of water movement provided by the stock pump in my invert tank. And until I decide on a wavemaker I have been turning any oversized one on to move stuff around and create surface agitation and try to get the snail poop off the sand bed. I havent done it for long periods because I got scared that raising the PH would make the ammonia more toxic. At least I read other comments about that.
the seachem ammonia alert shows .05 ppm
The last time I tested, API showed between .5 and 1 ppm
I am shocked about the amount of poop lol. I worry I am over feeding them, affecting the ammonia, but I also don’t want them to go hungry. ;Happy

 

[Dan_P]

I only have API for a test kit.
I just ran the ph after looking at your message. See attached. I think it is falling somewhere between 7.4 and 7.8. Previous experience with the API ph compared to a LFS who checked my water of my display, indicated API runs a little lower than actual. There isn’t a lot of water movement provided by the stock pump in my invert tank. And until I decide on a wavemaker I have been turning any oversized one on to move stuff around and create surface agitation and try to get the snail poop off the sand bed. I havent done it for long periods because I got scared that raising the PH would make the ammonia more toxic. At least I read other comments about that.
the seachem ammonia alert shows .05 ppm
The last time I tested, API showed between .5 and 1 ppm
I am shocked about the amount of poop lol. I worry I am over feeding them, affecting the ammonia, but I also don’t want them to go hungry. ;Happy

Thanks for the info.

I feed my 16 large Mexican turbos 64 square inches of dried seaweed per day, or 4 square inches per snail. If your snails are half the size of mine, say an inch in diameter, feed them 1-2 square inches each per day.

The knock on API is the confusing zero point, i.e., is it zero or 0.25 ppm. Once your ammonia level rises above this ambiguous coloration, the test is likely indicating elevated total ammonia. I use a modified version of the API ammonia test quite often and the chemicals have proven reliable.

I happen to have a photo of the Red Sea insert from a recent chat with @brandon429 showing the relationship between pH and temperature and the percent ammonia. Let’s say the API pH is 7.8 and pick a temperature, say 23 C. The intersection of these values show 3% free ammonia. With a total ammonia of 0.5-1.0 ppm, the free ammonia would be 0.015-.03 ppm free ammonia which is in reasonable agreement with the Seachem Alert. Fluctuations in temperature and pH will result in free ammonia concentration fluctuations. By the way, the Alert responds quickly to increases in ammonia but very slowly to decreases.

Just curious, how is the nitrite level?

Now the unconventional idea. I don’t know how long the tank has been set up, and I am not sure I understand completely what you added to start it, but if it is very young, it is possible that ammonia oxidizers are not keeping up with the poop machine turbos. If this idea makes sense, add BioSpira or Fritz Turbo Start to quickly boost the population of ammonia oxidizing bacteria.

And maybe start lining up possible foster homes for some of your family of Mexican turbos. These are big snails, though I doubt you can overfeed them. The only time that I might have given my 16 turbos too much food is when I gave them two 8x8 sheets of dried seaweed and they did not finish within 3 hours

 

[rmorris_14]

Thanks for the info.

I feed my 16 large Mexican turbos 64 square inches of dried seaweed per day, or 4 square inches per snail. If your snails are half the size of mine, say an inch in diameter, feed them 1-2 square inches each per day.

The knock on API is the confusing zero point, i.e., is it zero or 0.25 ppm. Once your ammonia level rises above this ambiguous coloration, the test is likely indicating elevated total ammonia. I use a modified version of the API ammonia test quite often and the chemicals have proven reliable.

I happen to have a photo of the Red Sea insert from a recent chat with @brandon429 showing the relationship between pH and temperature and the percent ammonia. Let’s say the API pH is 7.8 and pick a temperature, say 23 C. The intersection of these values show 3% free ammonia. With a total ammonia of 0.5-1.0 ppm, the free ammonia would be 0.015-.03 ppm free ammonia which is in reasonable agreement with the Seachem Alert. Fluctuations in temperature and pH will result in free ammonia concentration fluctuations. By the way, the Alert responds quickly to increases in ammonia but very slowly to decreases.

Just curious, how is the nitrite level?

Now the unconventional idea. I don’t know how long the tank has been set up, and I am not sure I understand completely what you added to start it, but if it is very young, it is possible that ammonia oxidizers are not keeping up with the poop machine turbos. If this idea makes sense, add BioSpira or Fritz Turbo Start to quickly boost the population of ammonia oxidizing bacteria.

And maybe start lining up possible foster homes for some of your family of Mexican turbos. These are big snails, though I doubt you can overfeed them. The only time that I might have given my 16 turbos too much food is when I gave them two 8x8 sheets of dried seaweed and they did not finish within 3 hours

The last time I checked nitrite, which was Friday, it was maybe somewhere between .25 and .5 attached picture. I haven’t checked it since but I have done two 5 gallon water changes. One Friday night and one Sunday afternoon. The tank has only been up for a little over a week. When I started it, I added live sand, some media from my display, life rock, and bactiv 8 on first, third and fifth day after adding the inverts. I also did a water change on that day before adding the last of the bactiv8. I then did another water change on Sunday (as mentioned) and added the instructions amount (1 1/2 cups) of Fritz zyme 9. I added another 1/2 cup this morning. Seachem is still showing .05 alert. I’ll probably do another water change tomorrow after the 48 hour mark of adding the Fritz 9 to remove the accumulation of turbo poop again. I hope that gives the bacteria a chance to catch up.

 

[rmorris_14]

Thanks for the info.

I feed my 16 large Mexican turbos 64 square inches of dried seaweed per day, or 4 square inches per snail. If your snails are half the size of mine, say an inch in diameter, feed them 1-2 square inches each per day.

The knock on API is the confusing zero point, i.e., is it zero or 0.25 ppm. Once your ammonia level rises above this ambiguous coloration, the test is likely indicating elevated total ammonia. I use a modified version of the API ammonia test quite often and the chemicals have proven reliable.

I happen to have a photo of the Red Sea insert from a recent chat with @brandon429 showing the relationship between pH and temperature and the percent ammonia. Let’s say the API pH is 7.8 and pick a temperature, say 23 C. The intersection of these values show 3% free ammonia. With a total ammonia of 0.5-1.0 ppm, the free ammonia would be 0.015-.03 ppm free ammonia which is in reasonable agreement with the Seachem Alert. Fluctuations in temperature and pH will result in free ammonia concentration fluctuations. By the way, the Alert responds quickly to increases in ammonia but very slowly to decreases.

Just curious, how is the nitrite level?

Now the unconventional idea. I don’t know how long the tank has been set up, and I am not sure I understand completely what you added to start it, but if it is very young, it is possible that ammonia oxidizers are not keeping up with the poop machine turbos. If this idea makes sense, add BioSpira or Fritz Turbo Start to quickly boost the population of ammonia oxidizing bacteria.

And maybe start lining up possible foster homes for some of your family of Mexican turbos. These are big snails, though I doubt you can overfeed them. The only time that I might have given my 16 turbos too much food is when I gave them two 8x8 sheets of dried seaweed and they did not finish within 3 hours

Also thanks for the info amount how much you feed your turbos. I have been trying to get info on that. I’m not worried amount feeding them too much, other than the tank not being able to support the waste load. But I obviously don’t want to underfeed. Your info gave me a good gauge on where I should be for that.

 

[Dan_P]

The last time I checked nitrite, which was Friday, it was maybe somewhere between .25 and .5 attached picture. I haven’t checked it since but I have done two 5 gallon water changes. One Friday night and one Sunday afternoon. The tank has only been up for a little over a week. When I started it, I added live sand, some media from my display, life rock, and bactiv 8 on first, third and fifth day after adding the inverts. I also did a water change on that day before adding the last of the bactiv8. I then did another water change on Sunday (as mentioned) and added the instructions amount (1 1/2 cups) of Fritz zyme 9. I added another 1/2 cup this morning. Seachem is still showing .05 alert. I’ll probably do another water change tomorrow after the 48 hour mark of adding the Fritz 9 to remove the accumulation of turbo poop again. I hope that gives the bacteria a chance to catch up.

After reading about Fritz Zyme 9, it seems like it may not set any speed records for cycling an aquarium. I did not note where you lived, but these bacteria can be killed off when frozen. Could your bottle have been exposed to freezing temperatures? You have gotten unlucky…slow bacteria growth or dud bottle and hungry snails.

I did not mention that I am study nitrifying biofilm growth. It is early days yet for my work but I am noticing that bottled bacteria seem to do their work on surfaces and in the water for brand new setups. It is possible that water changes are removing a substantial amount of bacteria before they form a biofilm. Frequent large water changes too soon might be removing most of the bacteria. Just something to consider though it is an unconventional idea.

 

[rmorris_14]

After reading about Fritz Zyme 9, it seems like it may not set any speed records for cycling an aquarium. I did not note where you lived, but these bacteria can be killed off when frozen. Could your bottle have been exposed to freezing temperatures? You have gotten unlucky…slow bacteria growth or dud bottle and hungry snails.

I did not mention that I am study nitrifying biofilm growth. It is early days yet for my work but I am noticing that bottled bacteria seem to do their work on surfaces and in the water for brand new setups. It is possible that water changes are removing a substantial amount of bacteria before they form a biofilm. Frequent large water changes too soon might be removing most of the bacteria. Just something to consider though it is an unconventional idea.

It is possible the bottle was exposed to freezing temperature. I live in Indiana and it is currently in the 20s. I made sure the item was received and brought inside upon delivery but who knows what conditions it was in prior to.
I was wondering about the water changes effecting and reducing the bacteria I was adding, which is why I was adding it after water changes. But still wondered, if in the effort to reduce the ammonia, I was being counterproductive.
Out of curiosity, I retested the nitrite this morning and it is higher than it was Friday. Where exactly I can’t tell because the color is different than each of the samples attached.
In theory though, there would have to be bacteria on some level working for the nitrites to be increasing, correct? If I understand how the cycle works (which maybe I don’t hahaha)

 

[Dan_P]

It is possible the bottle was exposed to freezing temperature. I live in Indiana and it is currently in the 20s. I made sure the item was received and brought inside upon delivery but who knows what conditions it was in prior to.
I was wondering about the water changes effecting and reducing the bacteria I was adding, which is why I was adding it after water changes. But still wondered, if in the effort to reduce the ammonia, I was being counterproductive.
Out of curiosity, I retested the nitrite this morning and it is higher than it was Friday. Where exactly I can’t tell because the color is different than each of the samples attached.
In theory though, there would have to be bacteria on some level working for the nitrites to be increasing, correct? If I understand how the cycle works (which maybe I don’t hahaha)

Yes, if nitrite is increasing, ammonia is being oxidized. That should be a comfort.

How are critters looking? Active? Curled in the corner?