Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[EMeyer]

lol with all these successful comments and experience, do we still really need to test lol.

Emphatically yes, it needs to be tested. Because the great majority of posts supporting the notion that these products do something are not logically sound.

If you add a bottle to your tank, and are able to successfully establish a tank, this proves absolutely nothing. I can add a glass of DI water from my four year old's purple sippy cup to a new tank, then successfully establish a tank. By this same logic, purple sippy cups help a tank cycle faster.

Two essential factors for determining if a factor actually does something:
1. controls -- isolated tanks established at the same time, identical to the experimental tanks in all respects except for the factor being tested
2. replication -- multiple tanks in each group (multiple controls and multiple identical experimental tanks)

The starting assumption is always that the factor being tested does nothing. Only if the replicate experimental tanks show a consistent difference from the controls is there a logical basis for concluding the factor did anything.

Without those factors there is no logical basis for attributing the success of a tank to the bottle of special sauce the user added. Properly controlled and replicated experiments, or magical thinking.

I look forward to seeing results and encourage you to consider replication in your design.

 

[Dr. Reef]

After all consideration i have decided to change the goals. I am sure bacteria in bottle works for many so the goal now is not to prove if it works or not but what i will be testing for is how long each product take to cycle the tank and how much ammonia these products remove on daily basis.
Also because i have 4 tanks available i have decided to do 1 product at a time.

2 tanks as control and 2 tanks of same bacteria.
each tank will consist of

Tank
freshly made saltwater
ceramic media
dry sand
HOB just for circulating water (no filter)

this will take a long time to test each product but if i am not mistaken we dont need to do control tanks each time?

First Goal: How long does each product take to cycle tank.
Second goal: Test 4 ammonia kits to compare against eachother.
1. Seachem
2. RedSea
3. Salifert
4. Api

Products to be tested:
1. Bio spira
2. Dr Tims
3. Microbe lift
4. Stability
5. ATM Colony
6. Fritz Turbo Start

I am going to reach out to all these 6 manufacturer's and ask them to provide or sell me their fresh and most recently produced bottle for best results.

 

[MrsBugmaster]

I am more interested in which works best for an emergency qt tank set up. Often times I don't have 4 or 5 days to cycle a tank. And sand is not usually used in QT tank just pvc caves.

 

[tankstudy]

I am more interested in which works best for an emergency qt tank set up. Often times I don't have 4 or 5 days to cycle a tank. And sand is not usually used in QT tank just pvc caves.

Properly stored Biospira or Dr. Tim's works great. I prefer to do many times more (3-4) than the recommended when using emergency QT's incase the bacteria in bottle has diminished greatly. You can not overdose on the bacteria.

I prefer to at least run 1 digestion test of 0.25 ppm ammonia before putting stuff in QT. With the overly high dosage of bacteria and the very small amount of ammonia, it should cycle within 1 day. This is assuming you have at least 1 day available before needing to use the QT.

If you are in need of an instant QT, I dose even more.

 

[mikeyn]

Would you be interested in including Fritz Nitrifiers in your trial?

 

[WallysWorld]

I used the Red Sea Mature Kit on my recent build. Said it takes 21 days and it actually took 30 before I added any livestock.

I just started my 43 gal system last night on Red Sea Mature Kit. I'm using dry rock instead of live, so I always assumed that it would take longer. Did you use dry or live rock to achieve your 30 days?

 

[Dr. Reef]

i emailed all manufacturers today to see if they can provide a sample of their freshest possible bottle and if not then guarantee sale of one that is fresh.
i will post responses as they come along.

 

[AdamNC]

I just started my 43 gal system last night on Red Sea Mature Kit. I'm using dry rock instead of live, so I always assumed that it would take longer. Did you use dry or live rock to achieve your 30 days?

I used about 90% bleached dry rock and 10% live from my old tank and new 30lbs of dry sand and new 16lbs of live sand. I followed the instructions to a T but at day 22-23 the algae was still rampant so I shut off my lights and continued dosing the NoPoX for another week. Added a bunch more Turbos and Hermits and they did a nice job. In my 40 gallon it took 10 Mexican Turbos and 20 Hermits to tame the algae. At day 21 I had 5ppm No3.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

People that think that "how can bacteria stay in a bottle, they need to eat!" lack a basic understanding of the biology of bacteria. Bacteria can stay in stasis for thousands of years, yes thousands of years. It is all about how the bacteria is processed and packaged. It is a worthwhile test for sure but you didn't get some of the best bacteria available.. biodigest from probidio. There oxygen free packaging ensures that no bacteria are lost. I just cycled my 40 gallon breeder QT tank in two days and I added 5ppm of dr tims ammonia.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I am more interested in which works best for an emergency qt tank set up. Often times I don't have 4 or 5 days to cycle a tank. And sand is not usually used in QT tank just pvc caves.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/poll-how-long-to-cycle-my-qt-tank.403450/#post-4816061

 

[Dr. Reef]

Update guys
I like to thank the people at Fritz.
I would like to report that Fritz was the first company to reply back to me and commit to a sample when i am ready. They also provided addition material and links to videos that are beneficial to us.
i am going to post their response here.


"I agree with you that there are many products on the market making "instant cycle" claims.

Most of these products are basically blends of heterotrophic bacteria (bacillus) which are not true nitrifiers. These products have made hobbyists wary of any product claiming to be true nitrifiers and cycling aids.

I'm sure you're aware nitrifiers are chemotrophs, and are not spore formers. This means they are perishable, cannot be dried, frozen or have an extended shelf life. They may be viable after a long period but not to a point where there introduction will make much of a difference.

Fritz has been working with nitrifiers for over 25 years and is currently the largest producer of fresh and saltwater nitrifiers in the world. We ship product to aquaculture facilities, zoos and aquariums worldwide and have been researched and verified in several independent university studies, Texas A&M being the latest. We are currently cycling a large exhibit at The Florida Aquarium.

http://fritzzyme.com/files/A&M_Study.pdf

FritzZyme TurboStart is a concentrated nitrifying bacteria biomass that will instantly cycle an aquarium. The product is packed and shipped from our facility, must remain refrigerated and has a 4 month refrigerated shelf life. We commonly see up to 4ppm ammonia/nitrite oxidized within 24 hours. Which as you know would be an agressive fish load.

I would be happy to discuss our product and nitrifiers/cycling in general any time. Let me know when you need some mateiral and I will get it out to you.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I like to also report Dr.Tim and their staff was also prompt to respond back to me and commit to a sample when i am ready. They are also gathering some material and background papers they like to share with me and i am awating their response at this time. ill post them here soon as i get them.

 

[SDReefer]

Hi @Dr. Reef,
This is an interesting thread! I have a question about your scientific method:

You say that you will have two control tanks. How do you define control? No bacteria added? In my opinion, it would be more comparable if you boiled the bottled bacteria and used that as a control.

 

[Elude82]

Just out of curiosity.
When I set up new tanks.
Step 1. Live sand
Step 2. Live Rock
Step 3. 4.4 gallons NutriSea Water per 50Gallons
Step 4. Top off with fresh Salt Water
Step 5. Bottle of Bacteria, used to be Smart Start, now Fritz.
Step 6. Chemipure Elite in filtration.
As I’m typing this, I’m sitting in front of two of my tanks.
—A 90 Gallon Aggressive- 5 years old, kickstarted with Smart Start, traditional sump w/no protein Skimmer, heavy bioload, first introduced fish within 48 hours, once the water cleared from the sand.
—And a 25 Lagoon w/corals- 4 months old, kickstarted with Fritz, fish introduced fish with 24 hours, Inverts with 48 hours, and coral with a month.
Both have all original inhabitants.
I see the test will be using Dry rock and Dry Sand.
Are you testing to see if the bottles of Bacteria can cycle a tank? or if it’s possible to cycle a tank fast(not doing the traditional weeks/months)?
As Live Sand and Live Rock are readily available for “kickstarting” aquariums as well.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Hi @Dr. Reef,
This is an interesting thread! I have a question about your scientific method:

You say that you will have two control tanks. How do you define control? No bacteria added? In my opinion, it would be more comparable if you boiled the bottled bacteria and used that as a control.

Yes the 2 control tanks will be just simply tanks put together identically as all 4 but without the bacteria added to them. They are control theoretically they should take the longest to cycle vs tanks with bacteria added should cycle faster. if the claims from companies are true. boiling the bottle bacteria will kill the bacteria and will be no use in any way. am i missing the point? elaborate please.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Just out of curiosity.
When I set up new tanks.
Step 1. Live sand
Step 2. Live Rock
Step 3. 4.4 gallons NutriSea Water per 50Gallons
Step 4. Top off with fresh Salt Water
Step 5. Bottle of Bacteria, used to be Smart Start, now Fritz.
Step 6. Chemipure Elite in filtration.
As I’m typing this, I’m sitting in front of two of my tanks.
—A 90 Gallon Aggressive- 5 years old, kickstarted with Smart Start, traditional sump w/no protein Skimmer, heavy bioload, first introduced fish within 48 hours, once the water cleared from the sand.
—And a 25 Lagoon w/corals- 4 months old, kickstarted with Fritz, fish introduced fish with 24 hours, Inverts with 48 hours, and coral with a month.
Both have all original inhabitants.
I see the test will be using Dry rock and Dry Sand.
Are you testing to see if the bottles of Bacteria can cycle a tank? or if it’s possible to cycle a tank fast(not doing the traditional weeks/months)?
As Live Sand and Live Rock are readily available for “kickstarting” aquariums as well.

correct, this experiment is to show few things,
1. if bacteria in bottle can really shorten the cycle compared to traditional cycle with live rocks and fishless cycle we are used to over many years.
2. if bacteria in bottle works. how much ammonia can it process in time.
3. also testing 4 major brands of ammonia test kits against each other for accuracy.
4. not all products are made the same, some carry live bacteria and some carry blends and some spores. they all should have different cycling abilities and time they take to process ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

Dr Reef you do really well with all the ideas we have heaped on ya. nice handling of mass details/assimilation/getting buy in from companies, bout to go viral here. 100 k views by the time my tan wears off/predicted.

I cant wait to see when the untouched tank wielding equal surface area to your others can do its own minor digestion, even half a ppm to zero will be awesome to see if it can do it say by day 60 ish, could be double that based on inoculation variables and input feed variables (3 gnats landing in your tank and degrading is not as nice as 6 gnats, a few thou skin cells, and some cat dander he he/varies/all becomes trace ammonia given hydration time and actual digestion from competing aerobes mentioned above> this is how nature self cycles a road puddle. Contamination bacteria, nonfiltration types, that die in close proximity to nitrifiers also degrade into ammonia and may be among the top natural sources of feed where we didn't purposefully add any)

 

[Dr. Reef]

Dr Reef you do really well with all the ideas we have heaped on ya. nice handling of mass details/assimilation/getting buy in from companies, bout to go viral here. 100 k views by the time my tan wears off/predicted.

lol thank you, i want to make sure i listen to all ideas and put together this test in the best and appropriate way that the results are accurate and true. it is much more than i bargained for but i am true to my commitment and surprisingly enough some companies are too and they were aware of the thread even before my email went out so yes its about to go viral. I really like to thank everyone with their ideas and concerns comments to make this a perfect experiment. i admire you guys and also like to thank Fritz and Dr.Tim for such quick responses and their commitments and confidence in their products. i really appreciate them as well. as we progress......

 

[Devaji]

i emailed all manufacturers today to see if they can provide a sample of their freshest possible bottle and if not then guarantee sale of one that is fresh.
i will post responses as they come along.

the problem with this is, i am guessing we will see some pretty good results. however the rest of us might not get the freshest bottle. would do one fresh and one from a random store. be interesting to what the results are. i know more $$ but if the companies are offering the product for free then might be worth it?

I am really looking forward to this thread!

 

[hotashes]

Looking forward to see the result from all tests regarding Ammonia as many tanks, including my nano have shown 0.25 readings from day of set up. I used established live rock with a splash of old tank water, then new synthetic saltwater and ro washed new reeflowers sand.

Is it the bacteria in the bottle that holds the key, or the test kits not being accurate enough at hobbyist level?

@brandon429 you got me challenging this madness *grin*

A.