Bacteria...let's really start understanding them! part one

[flampton]

I'm wondering about bio-load vs sustainable bio-mas? And enough surface to handle a ammonia spike(dead fish,dead coal,over feed) or a cascading crash event? In twenty words or less, that's my attention span... JK

Not sure what the question is, but the amount of ammonia handling capacity is up to the individual user. So you want lots of flesh in your tank then you'll need a aerobic filter system in place for your nitrifiers e.g. wet dry filter.

However imo I don't believe that creating your system to be able to withstand the death of an animal will be the most healthy system. If you do then yes go with a very large wet dry filter

 

[tvan]

For one thing lack of de-nitrating bacteria. Toxins from fish, coral, bacteria, metals, synthetic salts, My fingers. If "IT" is imported and isn't used or exported, "IT" accumulates in the system.

 

[tvan]

Not sure what the question is, but the amount of ammonia handling capacity is up to the individual user. So you want lots of flesh in your tank then you'll need a aerobic filter system in place for your nitrifiers e.g. wet dry filter.

However imo I don't believe that creating your system to be able to withstand the death of an animal will be the most healthy system. If you do then yes go with a very large wet dry filter

So by flesh you mean corals, fish, cuc, bugs pods......

 

[flampton]

I think the question on everyone’s mind is “how can I get more diversity in my bacterial population?” And “how can I get more of the beneficial types?”. Also, if I get frags from a few friends tanks, will their bacteria populate in my tank, making it more diverse?

Great question! Answer is not what you want to hear. We can add as much diverse bacteria as we want but whether they establish a foothold in the tank is a complete different story and we have no way beyond a lab to test for colonization. And interestingly enough a tank verse a reef is a whole different story and there is a high likelihood that there is a well established terrestrial population of bacteria in there as well.

So I can't tell you just yet how to get the good types since I'll have to experiment with strains on my tank first, which is waiting on my first livestock. IPSF bugs and slime.

So I know how to add diversity to my tank. Just can never be sure what sticks around. I'll def be talking about this more later

 

[flampton]

So by flesh you mean corals, fish, cuc, bugs pods......

Yes fish top of the list by far. Look into how they filter at fish farms. They fatten the fish up in record time!

 

[tvan]

My filter:
10 gallon tank
Water fall ATS flows over a bed of crushed coral detritus trap and looks like a constant wave of air and water.
Three 1 gallon containers of 7+ inches of sand.
Three columns of red lava rock (about 5lbs).

 

[flampton]

A tank crash or cascading crash as you say should probably be understood as a low oxygen event rather than an ammonia caused event. When a cloudy bacterial bloom starts, it can drop oxygen quite quickly.
So a dead something that causes the tank to have a bloom probably kills more organisms by depleting oxygen rather than ammonia spike. Because dangerous O2 levels happen well before dangerous ammonia levels.
What I'm saying is that I would wager cascading crashes could be prevented by strong aeration and the bio-filter could handle the ammonia of the original dead livestock. But it can't handle the ammonia of everything killed when the O2 crashes.

I'm not totally sure on this. We can break this down in a number of ways such as surface area available on the dead organism, amount of dissolved organic carbon, where the animal starts decaying first. I think I can find a scenario for either being the smoking gun depending on the situation

 

[GlassMunky]

Following along.
Ive been doing monthly testing from AwuaBiomics since starting my new tank to watch trends over time, but it’s hard to really tell what the results actually mean other than me guessing.
I also tested 2 of my other tanks, and then moved rocks from both onto my main tank and am waiting to see what moves and how much.
Again not really sure what it all means but hopefully this thread will help give me a better idea.

 

[flampton]

Dear all

When reading this post what kind of visual aids would you think would make this article easier to understand?

 

[SMSREEF]

Dear all

When reading this post what kind of visual aids would you think would make this article easier to understand?

I think it works awesome as is.

However as you go forward, It would certainly help me if you added some microscope pics of the common bacteria that you are describing in each group.

I realize also this may not be possible because there are so many kinds. But if it is possible and you could pass along tips on how to know what we are looking at under a scope, that would be amazing.

 

[CrazyCarlitos]

Subscribed

thanks for sharing ur knowledge!

 

[tvan]

Yep, And how did you set up your system? and why? You r thoughts on improving the lives of our captives.

 

[Karen00]

This is great information! Thanks for taking the time to write it. I'm following.

 

[flampton]

I think it works awesome as is.

However as you go forward, It would certainly help me if you added some microscope pics of the common bacteria that you are describing in each group.

I realize also this may not be possible because there are so many kinds. But if it is possible and you could pass along tips on how to know what we are looking at under a scope, that would be amazing.

Thanks! I have to add pics as r2r wants it as an article. Bonus though is that I'm going to add a little bit more info to part one because of it acheiving article status.

I might add pics of bacteria but unfortunately they won't be too helpful. The bacteria in your tank are too small for you to identify under a microscope as to get good pics you need an electron microscope.

I think for one of the pics I'll make a figure with an aquarium and show where the different groups are found.

 

[flampton]

Yep, And how did you set up your system? and why? You r thoughts on improving the lives of our captives.

Well since this is more of an educational resource were I lay out things that have been established I would rather not in this post. My build thread is were you'll see the direction I'm taking and I'll talk about the hypotheses driving those choices. And remember I'm not a reefing expert, I'm a microbiology expert. So if you follow you might see the tank crash and burn based on a hypothesis that doesn't pan out. Oh and there is nothing on the build thread yet about my hypotheses since no livestock yet. Maybe I'll do a post tonight to my build thread when I start procrastinating on making this an article.

Oh and I forgot I'll be doing some home microbiology too so those pics will likely end up there as well. Haven't decided. If I do different threads I'll use the #bacteriarule hashtag

It's a funny thing we can try and predict what will happen based on the current science. However that's being done in the ocean or artificial system that tries and control all variables possible. Our tanks are not like this at all

 

[taricha]

I'm not totally sure on this. We can break this down in a number of ways such as surface area available on the dead organism, amount of dissolved organic carbon, where the animal starts decaying first. I think I can find a scenario for either being the smoking gun depending on the situation

See, now you've got me thinking about putting a hunk of salmon in my tank to see what crashes first - ammonia or oxygen...

 

[flampton]

Following along.
Ive been doing monthly testing from AwuaBiomics since starting my new tank to watch trends over time, but it’s hard to really tell what the results actually mean other than me guessing.
I also tested 2 of my other tanks, and then moved rocks from both onto my main tank and am waiting to see what moves and how much.
Again not really sure what it all means but hopefully this thread will help give me a better idea.

Well unfortunately I'm not sure the operation is going to help you much. There can be a completely different microbiome in every nook and cranny of your tank. Basically miniature ecosystems throughout. That being said I think the info is pretty fun, and if you get joy out of it doesn't matter.

See, now you've got me thinking about putting a hunk of salmon in my tank to see what crashes first - ammonia or oxygen...

You know when a fish dies it sometime floats? Gas build up from the fish being digested from the inside. That's all anaerobic. The first barrier that tends to give way in a dead animal is it's digestive tract. So don't think a hunk of salmon is going to be representative

 

[BeltedCoyote]

I’m nerding out over here!!!

 

[flampton]

I shouldn't say I'm an expert in microbiology because of my degree. A lot of the stuff in reading I can understand better than a laymen but I'm continually learning. So now as I contemplate on it it is foolish for me to say I'm an expert in bacteria. That would be like a biologist saying they're an expert in mammals, reptiles, birds, amphibians, plants, fish, mollusks.... And on and on. There is more species of bacteria than any other type combined.

So I feel I'm more the guide of a tour than a know it all professor

 

[BeltedCoyote]

I shouldn't say I'm an expert in microbiology because of my degree. A lot of the stuff in reading I can understand better than a laymen but I'm continually learning. So now as I contemplate on it it is foolish for me to say I'm an expert in bacteria. That would be like a biologist saying they're an expert in mammals, reptiles, birds, amphibians, plants, fish, mollusks.... And on and on. There is more species of bacteria than any other type combined.

So I feel I'm more the guide of a tour than a know it all professor

True enough. But you are still providing good information that helps someone like me get a reasonable grasp of the subject matter.