Bacteria maintenance. What do you dose?

[Daddy-o]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161012144511.htm

 

[King Turkey]

In general I don't dose bacteria. But a couple of years ago I had a bubble algae outbreak and tried Vibrant. My bubble algae disappeared after a couple of months of dosing the Vibrant... and the bubble algae has never come back.

But after the bubble algae disappeared I tried to keep dosing Vibrant as a "maintenance" dose and ended up with Dinos... however at the same time I had decided to also dose Aminos in the form of Red Sea A and B "coral food" as well as Fauna Marine Reef Vitality.

I stopped dosing everything and after several weeks all the Dinos disappeared.

Don't know what conclusion to make about the above...

I have recently set up a new large tank and am using the Prodibio Biodigest and Bioptim, dosing them every two weeks. Avoided a cycle but that also maybe because I moved all my existing live rock to the new tank with the same bioload so wasn't really expecting a cycle anyway.

generaly that happens when dosing bacteria and nitrate and phosphate reach zero one or the other or both. it is handy to keep some liquid nitrate on hand incase you crank down those parameters to fast I use this(picture attached)

 

[bgoldb]

Bottle bac sellers are also profiting wildly because there are no published articles about surface area proofing. Tales and guessing abound about what bacteria need or don’t need from us to thrive, and they have something for peace of mind $.

For example, it has been said for no less than 25 years by all reefers that we cannot instantly remove a sandbed without ramp down. The live rock wouldn’t have time to take on more bac (as if open spaces exist uncolonized unregulated by water shear etc)

If you start a poll, even 98% will claim it nowadays

It’s not how surface area works, or self regulates, the opposite simple fact is true: if a given # of live rock can run a system stand alone, then removing all incidental surface area surrounding it doesn’t weaken the filtration capacity of the remaining live rock. We’ve been fed the Lamarckian version of reef microbiology, so now we buy bottle bac just in case.
In the sand rinse thread we remove full sandbeds instantly, measuring the impacts of the same bioload now just ran by a chunk of rocks. We measured with mindstream digital, not a guess between slight green or yellow.

Reef tanks can always handle waste ammonia from common living creatures. If a given set of rocks can run twenty two fish, and we’ve only started with ten, then adding the other twelve doesn’t cause an ammonia spike, surfaces don’t ramp up. If it’s been submerged in a reef tank, it’s got total bac coverage

We measured with living fish after tank transfers for four years running, no ammonia spikes as live rock does not take on replacement bacteria when surrounding surface area is removed

The remaining surface area is either enough or it isn’t. It’s not possible to have sustained .25 ammonia, events are all doom or they are all success where surface area is in question.
Additionally, anyone here can install ten canister filters on their reef, run them six years, then instantly remove them with no harm to the greater system, and no parameter other than nitrate affected.

We wouldn’t use bottle bac in the sand rinse thread as a matter of human pride.

Somewhat random stream of consciousness?

 

[mtfish]

I dose saltwater from the Gulf of Mexico. I am sure there is plenty of bacteria there!

 

[brandon429]

Bgold


I listed ways people use bottled bac based due false notions perpetuated in the hobby, what have you arrived at for the subject of use or misuse of bottle bac

have any links we can read for your work or unique takeaways you derived from work logged?

 

[Jeeperz]

So is bottled bacteria not necessary if my tank is started with Marco and life rock from caribsea?

 

[King Turkey]

well bottle bacteria is pretty straight forward. I can replicate dosing bacteria vs not dosing bacteria to drive down nitrate. I have logged one week no dose vs one week dosing. week none doing I can see nitrate drop at a rate of 5ppt nitrate with same feeding. with dosing bacteria I can drop 5ppt nitrate in 24 hours. I run a ultra low and feed heavy in my rank having high nitrates causing me algae bloom on rock work if over 20. I can dose bacteria but nitrate will drop and stay zero so I add small nitrate into top off to maintain 2 nitrate deterring diatom bloom. side note it is important to keep phosphate above zero but at the oceans nitrate to phosphate ratio in order to benefit from and excel coral color and growth. not keeping the ratio could also cause other issues in tank.

 

[Big E]

Paul was kind enough to provide a sample, we discuss it in his tank thread and another (I can link it when I'm on a PC)

Short answer is older tanks tend to be less diverse, while Paul's is highly diverse for it's age. I think I estimated his tank has the avg diversity of a 5 yr old tank or so. Also showed different families at high levels than in the average tank.

Do you have data to show that old tanks are less diverse? And compared to what? I'd like to see it and the ages in years of the systems you have tested, ect. When is a tank specified as an "old" tank.

What's the diversity of an average tank? What does that even mean by the label "average" tank.

I'd like to see your data and sample sizes, ect. and the testing you have done.

 

[Laith]

generaly that happens when dosing bacteria and nitrate and phosphate reach zero one or the other or both. it is handy to keep some liquid nitrate on hand incase you crank down those parameters to fast I use this(picture attached)

Yes I agree... I think that is what happened. I avoid zeroing out Nitrates and Phosphates and have on hand KNO3 and Na3PO4 which use to make my own Nitrate and Phosphate solutions.

I haven't yet dosed phosphates but have dosed nitrates and currently NO3 is at 10 and PO4 is at 0.03. If the PO4 goes any lower I will dose the Na3PO4 to bring it up a bit...

 

[Leonardo_]

I used several products in the past (TM nitribiotic and Prodibio). Didn’t notice an effect.
Nowadays I just add a piece of fresh Liverock in the sump from time to time. Best source of biodiversity :)

Leonardo

 

[PhreeByrd]

Paul was kind enough to provide a sample, we discuss it in his tank thread and another (I can link it when I'm on a PC)

Short answer is older tanks tend to be less diverse, while Paul's is highly diverse for it's age. I think I estimated his tank has the avg diversity of a 5 yr old tank or so. Also showed different families at high levels than in the average tank.

This is interesting, and it seems logical to me (although entirely without any real evidence) that the bacterial populations and diversity in a closed system would change over time, making older systems less diverse. This population change happens with larger, more complex life forms, so why not also with microbial life?

Just as one example, all my tanks had large populations of stomatella in their early years, but it's been a really long time (many years) since I've seen any in my tanks. Something (no idea what, except that it was definitely a gradual, natural process) caused them to die off.

Is it important? Beats me. It's just an observation.

 

[taricha]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161012144511.htm

The referenced paper is a great read. Thanks!

 

[NeutronMan]

I dose saltwater from the Gulf of Mexico. I am sure there is plenty of bacteria there!

Yes, vibrio.

 

[mtfish]

Yes, vibrio.

Tiss true. I bet it is in aquariums that use artificial water also. I also bet it is not the major bacteria in my aquarium. Concerns with NSW is red tides, not bacteria.

 

[LCG]

Vibrant every other week

 

[radiata]

If you provide bacteria as filter feeder food, that's great.

I dosed vinegar largely for that reason. :)

I like my sponges, and want to increase my bacteria count for their benefit. Could you please recommended a daily vinegar dose, like maybe ml per gallon of culture water? TIA...

 

[Mark Gray]

I have been in the hobby a long time. I have never dosed any bacteria. Well On my last tank I did use Dr Tim's to start with but that was 2 years ago.

 

[lexinverts]

Do you have data to show that old tanks are less diverse? And compared to what? I'd like to see it and the ages in years of the systems you have tested, ect. When is a tank specified as an "old" tank.

What's the diversity of an average tank? What does that even mean by the label "average" tank.

I'd like to see your data and sample sizes, ect. and the testing you have done.

Yes, he has a fairly large data set. You can find information on his methods and what an "average tank" looks like on his website:

www.aquabiomics.com

The relationship between the species richness of microbes (number of different bacterial variants) and tank age in years is described in a regression analysis. I don't believe this is available yet, but is forthcoming, pending more data from large tanks.

 

[Rick Gaas]

I've been operated my tank for a while to encourage 3 types of bacteria: 1) Nitrogen reducing bacteria i.e. that are responsible for reducing ammonia to nitrogen gas; 2) Bacteria free in the water column that binds N&P as it uses organics and is then exported i.e. carbon dosing; and 3) Bacteria that is added to reduce algae & organic detritus i.e. Vibrant.

As the tank has matured, I have cut back carbon dosing. I'm down to 18 ml/day of vinegar in a 100 gallon system. That's probably not enough to appreciably reduce nutrients, but I like the idea of free bacteria as food for other organisms in the system. I've also cut the Vibrant dosage to 5ml every other week. I have observed that this small dose helps with water clarity and reduces film build-up on the glass.

Thank you for the detailed response. What bacteria products are you using other than vibrant?

 

[Steve180]

Hmmmm never heard of this before, if your tank is mature you should already have bacteria in your rocks