Bacterial infection & flukes

[ss88]

I acquired this fish a few months ago, and I’m somewhat perplexed by its current decline. I suspect the issue may be related to hemorrhaging from flukes detaching, possibly complicated by a secondary bacterial infection from the flukes. I’ve also noticed some small marks on the tail fin.

During the copper treatment, the fish never accepted food on its own. There was a one-day delay in shipping via FedEx, but I took precautions by matching the incoming pH, salinity, and acclimating for temperature, to minimize the risk of ammonia burn. The fish would only eat if I offered food directly in front of it. I assumed this was related to the copper and wrasse sensitivity.

I completed a 45-day copper treatment at 75°F, as the order included subtropical fish as well. After finishing the copper treatment, I performed water changes over 15 days to reduce the copper concentration to below 0.25 ppm (Copper Power) 11/27/24.

The fish stopped eating 4 days ago (12/1/24). On 12/3/24, I noticed a section of raised scales, so I started administering Baytril at 2.5 ppm in the tank. On the same day, I administered a 2.2 ppm Praziquantel treatment.

On 12/4/24, I performed a 90% water change in the system to remove the Praziquantel 24 hours after dosing. I then removed the fish from the system and isolated it in a 10-gallon aquarium to continue the Baytril treatment for an additional 4 days, with 100% water changes every 12 hours.

The only significant change in my protocol has been switching from RO water to tap water. My city’s water contains chloramines, and I avoid using a dechlorinator when copper is involved. None of the other fish in the system appear to be adversely affected by the small amount of residual copper or dechlorinator. The dechlorinator is added to the tap water before mixing Instant Ocean salt to 1.023.

As of 2hrs the specimen has developed postural imbalance. So, presumed to be moribund.

Notice the detached scale at the bottom of the aquarium.

 

[ss88]

Has anyone had success quarantining these specimens using hyposalinity?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Has anyone had success quarantining these specimens using hyposalinity?

Ive seen them in hypo but have not placed them in hypo myself. Ive had mine over two years without issues. Mine eats chunks of shrimp, scallop, krill and squid. Raised scales can be from scratching/flukes or bacterial issue
is it breathing normal or rapid?

 

[ss88]

is it breathing normal or rapid?

I posted a video.

 

[Crabby48]

Chance he can stop eating in qt or not all all with that setup. Some need a more natural setting to keep eating. Live foods, gell foods, clams on half shell even nori left in tank over night is something to try. Clam on half shell might be the one he goes for. As far as meds and copper with him he should take it all like a champ

 

[Crabby48]

Apologies as I didn’t read the last part. Disregard my reply. Fingers crossed for him

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I acquired this fish a few months ago, and I’m somewhat perplexed by its current decline. I suspect the issue may be related to hemorrhaging from flukes detaching, possibly complicated by a secondary bacterial infection from the flukes. I’ve also noticed some small marks on the tail fin.

During the copper treatment, the fish never accepted food on its own. There was a one-day delay in shipping via FedEx, but I took precautions by matching the incoming pH, salinity, and acclimating for temperature, to minimize the risk of ammonia burn. The fish would only eat if I offered food directly in front of it. I assumed this was related to the copper and wrasse sensitivity.

I completed a 45-day copper treatment at 75°F, as the order included subtropical fish as well. After finishing the copper treatment, I performed water changes over 15 days to reduce the copper concentration to below 0.25 ppm (Copper Power) 11/27/24.

The fish stopped eating 4 days ago (12/1/24). On 12/3/24, I noticed a section of raised scales, so I started administering Baytril at 2.5 ppm in the tank. On the same day, I administered a 2.2 ppm Praziquantel treatment.

On 12/4/24, I performed a 90% water change in the system to remove the Praziquantel 24 hours after dosing. I then removed the fish from the system and isolated it in a 10-gallon aquarium to continue the Baytril treatment for an additional 4 days, with 100% water changes every 12 hours.

The only significant change in my protocol has been switching from RO water to tap water. My city’s water contains chloramines, and I avoid using a dechlorinator when copper is involved. None of the other fish in the system appear to be adversely affected by the small amount of residual copper or dechlorinator. The dechlorinator is added to the tap water before mixing Instant Ocean salt to 1.023.

As of 2hrs the specimen has developed postural imbalance. So, presumed to be moribund.

Notice the detached scale at the bottom of the aquarium.

I’m struggling to follow the timeline here: you ran copper power at full dose for 45 days and then took 15 days to reduce the copper? Then you said it didn’t eat on its own during the copper treatment? Did it get enough food? I’m not sure why it was only hand feeding, perhaps it’s blind?

Other things I didn’t understand - why change 90% of the water after the prazi treatment? That isn’t needed.

Chloramines are tough to deal with, you have to be careful making big water changes if you aren’t dealing with them properly, as the bound ammonia is toxic. I used to batch treat the freshwater by adding a double dose of sodium thiosulfate and then remove the free ammonia with clinoptilite or a bio filter and then add the salt.

I’ve run tuskfish through hyposalinity, but I wouldn’t try that on this fish with its current issues.

 

[ss88]

I considered blindness, but the specimen did respond to visual stimuli. I also tried offering live freshwater shrimp to stimulate its appetite, but with no success.

Here’s the timeline of events:

• 9/27/24: Received the fish
• 9/27/24: Started copper treatment at 2.25 ppm at 75°F
• 11/12/24: Performed a 50% water change, stopped copper treatment
• 11/20/24: Until this point, the fish only accepted food when offered by hand. Normal appetite observed
• 11/21/24: Appetite decreased
• 11/27/24: Copper level reduced below 0.25 ppm
• 12/1/24: Fish stopped eating
• 12/3/24, 11:00am: Mixed 250 gallon of tap water with Aquasafe sodium thiosulfate for dechlorination
• 12/3/24, 11:00am: Noticed a section of raised scales
• 12/3/24, 1:00pm: Mixed in IO salt
• 12/3/24, 11:00 pm: Started administering Baytril at 2.5 ppm in the primary qt tank.
• 12/3/24, 11:00 pm: Administered a 2.2 ppm Praziquantel treatment in the primary qt tank.
• 12/4/24, 11:00 pm: Moved the fish from the primary quarantine system to isolation in a 10-gallon tank with 2.5 ppm Baytril. Added 1 ml of Prime to neutralize ammonia. Objective to continue treatment with Baytril without killing main bio filter.
• 12/4/24, 11:30 pm: Performed a 90% water change in the main quarantine system to remove Praziquantel
• 12/5/24, 11:00 am: Performed a 100% water change in the 10-gallon isolation tank, addition of 2.5 ppm Baytril, added 1 ml of Prime to neutralize ammonia
• 12/5/24, 8:30 pm: Specimen died
• 12/5/24, 8:40 pm: Ammonia level in the 10-gallon isolation tank tested at 1 ppm

I believe the death was likely due to a combination of issues, including flukes, secondary bacterial infection, multiple medication dosage concurrently and possibly some stress from the ammonia levels.

My success rate with tusk fish has been about 50/50. I’ve also had issues with wrasses not tolerating Praziquantel, which is why I performed a water change 24 hours after dosing.

I don't have much experience with hyposalinity, but I'd be more inclined to try it next time. These fish don't seem to tolerate diseases for extended periods. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hyposalinity is effective against marine velvet, ich, and most parasitic infections, right?

 

[ss88]

Chloramines are tough to deal with, you have to be careful making big water changes if you aren’t dealing with them properly, as the bound ammonia is toxic. I used to batch treat the freshwater by adding a double dose of sodium thiosulfate and then remove the free ammonia with clinoptilite or a bio filter and then add the salt.

Is this method safe to use with copper power? I was under the impression amquel contains sodium thiosulfate and is possibly toxic with chelated copper and ionic copper. Amquel binds ammonia, but its temporary correct?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Is this method safe to use with copper power? I was under the impression amquel contains sodium thiosulfate and is possibly toxic with chelated copper and ionic copper. Amquel binds ammonia, but its temporary correct?

Yes - because you are treating the water BEFORE you add the salt and BEFORE you add the copper. The possible risk with breaking the amine/copper bond comes from directly dosing a copper treated tank with an EXCESS of reducing agents (like sodium thio, formalin, etc,).

Amquel binds long enough for the molecule to be broken down by bacteria. What people fail to realize is that in many cases, the ammonia is still building. That means that this newly created ammonia hasn't been bound with Amquel yet, and so it seems like it was released from the Amquel, but it is actually just new ammonia. It does sometimes appear that Amquel used multiple times over a long period begins to not work as well, but I don't have actual proof of that, just general observations.