BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

[MnFish1]

Well the manufacturer recommends 2.5ppm. Is it safe to say that it's ok to recommend treating up to that concentration?

I'm not saying one way or the other is right or wrong.

Honestly - I dont use copper ever. So I have no clue - there is the free copper vs total copper issue - really I have no idea

 

[MnFish1]

Well put, as always. I stopped contributing for this reason. It wasn’t productive.



You didn’t stumble in to that in all of your research? .

The first part of that sentence kind of speaks volumes, wouldn’t you think?

Regarding your squad comment and badges — I didn’t get those badges by simply reading on the Internet. It was hours weeks years of experience and translating that in to helping others here on this forum. We should be held to a high regard. Let’s not forget the motive/end.

This is not a job, I have a full-time career. I volunteer here. I have many responsibilities at and outside of work. I have a family, two kids. I’m not here selling products. I don’t have time for unproductive debates. I intended to inform people that our protocol in my opinion needed a revision.

It’s OK to agree to disagree, something I attempted perhaps a dozen times. Eventually, I just stopped responding. It’s not that I don’t appreciate you, but the point I tried to make this entire time is contained in the quote from you above. There’s a reason my degrees didn’t translate to real experience — books and reality are sometimes different. All of the management classes, developing nations economic courses, and any other classes I took were a useful framework but the real world is much more complex and life cannot be captured entirely in pages.

It absolutely blows my mind to re-read that first sentence quoted above. I know you are a stickler for science and facts, but as logical as you are surely you see this point?

Hold me to a higher regard, but don’t expect me perform peer reviewed studies and be a full-time scientist here. If you don’t agree with me, move on. Perhaps I shouldn’t have let this thread go off the rails, I find it hard to believe users will gain anything from our discussion back and forth. You can make your point that you disagree and why and say your piece and I accept your difference of opinion and we move on with our merry lives.

This is a great community, with great people including yourself. I think it’s easy for people to forget that we are all on the same team, passionate about the same hobby, and we are in this together.

All jokes aside, I hope you’ll accept my apologies for getting annoyed with you. There is more to life than being right or wrong.

In the words of my father— “You can be right all the way to divorce court”. In the words of my first sales boss— “You can be right all the way to bankruptcy court”.

Responding to this would be a no win. I said the same things you did - we're all on the same team.

 

[MnFish1]

You didn’t stumble in to that in all of your research? .

Risking divorce lol. This was not a friendly comment. Perhaps they should reconsider your badge - its clear you're angry - about something. But I'm not a baby give or take... Ps - I think you deserve what yo've been given - but. You're so defensive here...

 

[Smo]

@4FordFamily, @HotRocks thanks for sharing this latest observation. Starting with HumbleFish, I have been following your QT procedures and as a result have not lost a single fish due to disease (or the QT process) in over two years. Thanks for all your contributions. You help make this hobby enjoyable and successful!

 

[Lasse]

Basically - my friend use the same system as @Lowell Lemon describe. It works very well. Each of these systems he use are 2 800 litres - six 200 litres and 12 pcs 100 litres. Every tank have an internal foam filter of 1000 to 2000 litres an hour. If disease occurs - that tank can be shout of from the main system during treatment. Otherwise the system and handling is the same.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[4FordFamily]

Risking divorce lol. This was not a friendly comment. Perhaps they should reconsider your badge - its clear you're angry - about something. But I'm not a baby give or take... Ps - I think you deserve what yo've been given - but. You're so defensive here...

That comment is humor. Again, not upset just using comic relief to a real life lesson I was taught lol

 

[4FordFamily]

I updated the sticky to indicate that perhaps increasing the exposure to copper would work as well, and the first sentence of the “what caused” this section. Humblefish himself suggests perhaps it is something else, but without testing we cannot rule it in or out (which of course I think we all agree on— 2.0 PPM copper is still well below 2.5 PPM)

 

[WWIII]

@HotRocks @4FordFamily Do you think it's been long enough now to know if the 2.0ppm level was successful? Am I correct in my reading that the first batch of fish that had velvet after 14 days in 1.75 were then treated in 2.25? I assume you will keep us updated on the batch that recently completed treatment at a 2.0ppm level.

Thank you all for all that you share with your QT processes! The good and the bad! How many more fish do you all have to go till the tanks are "full" or "full-ish".

 

[HotRocks]

@HotRocks @4FordFamily Do you think it's been long enough now to know if the 2.0ppm level was successful? Am I correct in my reading that the first batch of fish that had velvet after 14 days in 1.75 were then treated in 2.25? I assume you will keep us updated on the batch that recently completed treatment at a 2.0ppm level.

Thank you all for all that you share with your QT processes! The good and the bad! How many more fish do you all have to go till the tanks are "full" or "full-ish".

My tanks are full, it's all on @4FordFamily now hahahahaha!

I am still QTing fish for a couple other friends etc so we will still be able to continue working on it though

 

[4FordFamily]

@HotRocks @4FordFamily Do you think it's been long enough now to know if the 2.0ppm level was successful? Am I correct in my reading that the first batch of fish that had velvet after 14 days in 1.75 were then treated in 2.25? I assume you will keep us updated on the batch that recently completed treatment at a 2.0ppm level.

Thank you all for all that you share with your QT processes! The good and the bad! How many more fish do you all have to go till the tanks are "full" or "full-ish".

Well, if we weren't learning hard lessons, I'd be a lot further but we are close, not much need for more fish after the next batch that is successful. We will keep you posted, I imagine if 1.5PPM is therapeutic, 2.0 should work. If there are any further issues, of course this will be amended.

 

[AMBER NICHOLS]

Hi all,

Sounds like in order to test this, you would need to design a protocol with multiple arms.

Arm A- Copper at a higher (not sure what level would be clinically significant) for 14 days.

Arm B- Copper at normal range 1.5-1.75(?) For extended period 30 days.

Arm C- Lower salinity and min copper above 1.5 for 14 days.

Arm D- Lower salinity and min copper for 30 days.

Control Arm- ?

The issue would be if there was a strand that is surviving Arm A, how would we guarantee it's in Arm B & C, etc. Since these are our pets and not animal trials, you cannot ethically infect these fish. All you can do is record results.

I don't know what level to increase copper so that it's clinically significant or not but we know the upper safe range is 2.5 for most fish. Perhaps this would be a good starting point.

There a tons of holes in above that need filled in! Perhaps a constructive route would be that all you folks get together and develop scientific protocol and schedule of events for each arm. (Documenting each event)

Tearing into folks current work and research isn't constructive. Helping folks (without scientific backgrounds) develop methods for their work and research is.

Please work together.

 

[WWIII]

I can't wait to see more pictures of both your guy's tanks! Some seriously amazing fish that you all have acquired! I can't imagine trying to stock a 10 foot tank, with the disease that we see coming from suppliers today. I've had a hard enough time trying to stock a couple 4 foot tanks. Pretty sad the way a lot of these fish come in to us, especially the more finicky ones. I wish it were different, but it's not.

 

[4FordFamily]

Hi all,

Sounds like in order to test this, you would need to design a protocol with multiple arms.

Arm A- Copper at a higher (not sure what level would be clinically significant) for 14 days.

Arm B- Copper at normal range 1.5-1.75(?) For extended period 30 days.

Arm C- Lower salinity and min copper above 1.5 for 14 days.

Arm D- Lower salinity and min copper for 30 days.

Control Arm- ?

The issue would be if there was a strand that is surviving Arm A, how would we guarantee it's in Arm B & C, etc. Since these are our pets and not animal trials, you cannot ethically infect these fish. All you can do is record results.

I don't know what level to increase copper so that it's clinically significant or not but we know the upper safe range is 2.5 for most fish. Perhaps this would be a good starting point.

There a tons of holes in above that need filled in! Perhaps a constructive route would be that all you folks get together and develop scientific protocol and schedule of events for each arm. (Documenting each event)

Tearing into folks current work and research isn't constructive. Helping folks (without scientific backgrounds) develop methods for their work and research is.

Please work together.

Probably wouldn't hurt to try those. One thing that is not a good idea in my view, is lowering salinity. For one, it doesn't really impact velvet at all. I've had velvet run rampant through 1.009 salinity. But worse, it's very hard on the fish to handle both "threats" simultaneously. A meaningful decrease in salinity would be more harmful than good (in my experience), and this is something I've tried in the past with little success. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't recommend those options. Someone of course can test independently

We will, of course, test at higher copper range (2.5 is manufacturer recommendation, so 2.0 is still well below as @ngoodermuth reminded me). I don't know that we will test much with the extended period in the short run. I'd love for others to add their data points, as I don't plan to quarantine "large scale" much longer, since my primary goal is just to stock fish in my tanks.

Also for the casual reader -- the 14 day mark is ONLY if you are transferring fish to a completely new sterile quarantine post-treatment. This is not for treatments carried out in a single quarantine. This is because the parasites won't remain on the fish longer than 10 days (10 days for ich, 2-3 for velvet).

 

[4FordFamily]

I can't wait to see more pictures of both your guy's tanks! Some seriously amazing fish that you all have acquired! I can't imagine trying to stock a 10 foot tank, with the disease that we see coming from suppliers today. I've had a hard enough time trying to stock a couple 4 foot tanks. Pretty sad the way a lot of these fish come in to us, especially the more finicky ones. I wish it were different, but it's not.

Me too, I wish it wasn't the case. My build thread only gets an update once per month I fail LOL!

 

[Wildreefs]

Well the manufacturer recommends 2.5ppm. Is it safe to say that it's ok to recommend treating up to that concentration?

I'm not saying one way or the other is right or wrong.

Why not go to the recommended 2.5? As I’ve stated before, and may have been called crazy, or at least insinuated to that point, my lfs copper level has been as high as 2.7, with no ill immediate effects to common copper sensitive fish.

 

[MnFish1]

Why not go to the recommended 2.5? As I’ve stated before, and may have been called crazy, or at least insinuated to that point, my lfs copper level has been as high as 2.7, with no ill immediate effects to common copper sensitive fish.

Isnt the key point that there was no 'immediate' ill effects? The problem with 2.5 is that if you overshoot you might be much higher - and most of the literature says 1.5-2. 2.5 is the maximum (was my understanding).

 

[HotRocks]

Isnt the key point that there was no 'immediate' ill effects? The problem with 2.5 is that if you overshoot you might be much higher - and most of the literature says 1.5-2. 2.5 is the maximum (was my understanding).

There are even some fish that may not tolerate 2.5ppm IMO. 3.0ppm is getting close to toxic levels for some fish.

 

[lagatbezan]

@4FordFamily how long after the treatment was over did you see symptoms of velvet in the observation qt?

 

[FrancineJ]

Ugh, my 30 day copper treatment is up this Sunday. Should I extend it and increase copper?

I had to use copper... then a combo of metro, kanaplex and furan 2 to eradicate my velvet... but did manage to save 3 fish....

If they are not looking better after the 30 days of copper....I would get a 100% clean tank and transfer them and try this trifecta of meds next.... (for 2 weeks all at the same time... but follow directions... it requires water changes every couple days)

The copper “helped” but certainly didn’t fix anything now all 3 fish are great

 

[Crabs McJones]

I had to use copper... then a combo of metro, kanaplex and furan 2 to eradicate my velvet... but did manage to save 3 fish....

If they are not looking better after the 30 days of copper....I would get a 100% clean tank and transfer them and try this trifecta of meds next.... (for 2 weeks all at the same time... but follow directions... it requires water changes every couple days)

The copper “helped” but certainly didn’t fix anything now all 3 fish are great

Well we're 3 days in and so far so good