Banggai Canrdinal Death after Acclimation

[Instigate]

I got my first order from Live Aquaria Divers Den today and one of the pair of banggais didn't make it more than a few hours after acclimation. The picture of the fish showed him in perfect condition but when I put him in the tank I noticed he was missing 1/2 his first dorsal fin. He also had some red on his eyes and anal fin. Any ideas why he didn't make it? He started to breath heavy towards the end of acclimation but the other one was perfectly normal and still is.

Does anyone have experience with one of a bonded pair from divers den dying? Are they going to only want to refund on half the cost? I don't feel that is good enough because I wouldn't pay $30 each for banggais unless they're paired. Saves me the hassle of trying to get a pair by chance. And the only reason I paid $60 for the pair is because they're paired up. And if I was going to get just one I would have gotten as small juvenile because I would have it for longer.

 

[Maritimer]

The red marks look to me as though they might be an injury or early-phase bacterial infection.

I've never ordered any pairs / trios from LA/DD so have no experience to share there.

An acclimation method I've used in the past for shipped fish is to prick the bag, take a measurement of the salinity of the shipping water (using a refractometer), and matching my QT's salinity to the shipping bags while the fish float in their still-sealed to temperature-acclimate. Once the temps are the same, with the salinity at the same level as the bag, I can place the fish into my QT as soon as I open the bags. Once the bags are open, pH starts to rise as CO2 dissipates, and that makes the ammonia built up inside the bag more toxic.

I'm sorry for your loss - those guys are a charming mixture of odd and elegant, and they're beautiful fish.

~Bruce

 

[Lasse]

How long was the transport? (in hours)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

The reason why I asked about the transport time is based on own experiences. At the moment that your supplier put oxygen and seal your plastic bag with the fish following things will happen. The fish will both release NH3/NH4 and CO2 to the water in the sealed bag. CO2 will lower the pH in the bag and the NH3/NH4 (ammonia/Ammonia ion) complex will be more NH4 compared with NH3. This is good because NH4 (ammonia ion) is not toxic to your fish. The ratio NH4 to NO3 is mostly depended of the pH. At pH 8.5 -> NH3 is 15 % and NH4 is 85%; pH 8 NH3 around 5 % and NH4 around 95%; pH 7 -> NH3 < 0.01 % and NH4 >99.99 % NH4 is not toxic but NO3 is very toxic.

During a long transport the amount of NH3/NH4 can be rather high in your bag but because of the rising CO2 level – the pH will be <7 in the bag. The nitrogen will be more than 99.99 % in the not toxic form – NH4. The fish will do well.

What can happen when the fishes arrive home to you. I´m not saying that this is what’s happen in this case, but one thing that can happen is that you kill your fish when you try to make it as good as possible in the acclimation process. I can see in your picture that you slowly drop water from your QT to the bags. I suppose its good water with a pH around 8. Now the pH in the bag will arise and your safe levels of NH4 will slowly convert to dangerous NH3. If the amount of NH4 was high enough when you started the process – you can end up with toxic levels of NH3 in the end of the acclimation process.



What can you do to get a safer acclimation process? Here you will get 3 suggestions

1. Use a ammonia blocking agent in the bag – directly after you have open your bag – and after that - use the method you use today
   
2. Let the bag (unopen) be in your QT in order to get the same temperature. As @Maritimer suggest - you can adjust the salinity also – and after that – just put your fishes in the QT (I have to admit that I often do not adjust the salinity in these cases – just drop the fish in the tank after temperature adjustments)
   
3. Lower the pH in your QT to < 7 with help of bubbling some CO2 in it. Use this water (with the low pH) in the acclimation process as you do today (dripping tubes). Put the fishes in the QT and start to aerate the QT. The aeration will take out the CO2 and slowly rise the pH – after 12 hours – pH is normal.

The third method I have used many times when we have had fishes with transport times > 24 hours. It’s the best method I have used but I use all three methods now and when

I´m not saying that ammonia toxification is the reason for your lost – but it can be. Why have not both got the same way – paired pair must have come from the same tank. I can be so easy that the one that die has eaten more or later compared with the other. IMO – a fish that should be transported more than 24 hour should not be given any food at least 48 (I prefer 72) hour prior to the transport.

I hope this will help you a little

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Humblefish]

Once the bags are open, pH starts to rise as CO2 dissipates, and that makes the ammonia built up inside the bag more toxic.

^^ This; a fish which has been in transport for several hours will expel waste, but so long as the bag is sealed it will only produce non-toxic ammonium. However, once the bag is opened that non-toxic ammonium gets converted into toxic ammonia (takes about 30 minutes).

So, if you are going to do drip acclimation on a shipped fish always use an ammonia reducer like Amquel or Prime. Just be sure the fish wasn't shipped in copper or medicated water of any kind before using a reducer.

 

[Instigate]

The red marks look to me as though they might be an injury or early-phase bacterial infection.

I've never ordered any pairs / trios from LA/DD so have no experience to share there.

An acclimation method I've used in the past for shipped fish is to prick the bag, take a measurement of the salinity of the shipping water (using a refractometer), and matching my QT's salinity to the shipping bags while the fish float in their still-sealed to temperature-acclimate. Once the temps are the same, with the salinity at the same level as the bag, I can place the fish into my QT as soon as I open the bags. Once the bags are open, pH starts to rise as CO2 dissipates, and that makes the ammonia built up inside the bag more toxic.

I'm sorry for your loss - those guys are a charming mixture of odd and elegant, and they're beautiful fish.

~Bruce

Thanks. The red made me think bacterial infection as well. When I opened up the outer bag it was full of water that had seeped from the inner bag and I tested that to match the salinity of the QT before opening the inner bag.

How long was the transport? (in hours)

Sincerely Lasse

~18 hours

The reason why I asked about the transport time is based on own experiences. At the moment that your supplier put oxygen and seal your plastic bag with the fish following things will happen. The fish will both release NH3/NH4 and CO2 to the water in the sealed bag. CO2 will lower the pH in the bag and the NH3/NH4 (ammonia/Ammonia ion) complex will be more NH4 compared with NH3. This is good because NH4 (ammonia ion) is not toxic to your fish. The ratio NH4 to NO3 is mostly depended of the pH. At pH 8.5 -> NH3 is 15 % and NH4 is 85%; pH 8 NH3 around 5 % and NH4 around 95%; pH 7 -> NH3 < 0.01 % and NH4 >99.99 % NH4 is not toxic but NO3 is very toxic.

During a long transport the amount of NH3/NH4 can be rather high in your bag but because of the rising CO2 level – the pH will be <7 in the bag. The nitrogen will be more than 99.99 % in the not toxic form – NH4. The fish will do well.

What can happen when the fishes arrive home to you. I´m not saying that this is what’s happen in this case, but one thing that can happen is that you kill your fish when you try to make it as good as possible in the acclimation process. I can see in your picture that you slowly drop water from your QT to the bags. I suppose its good water with a pH around 8. Now the pH in the bag will arise and your safe levels of NH4 will slowly convert to dangerous NH3. If the amount of NH4 was high enough when you started the process – you can end up with toxic levels of NH3 in the end of the acclimation process.



What can you do to get a safer acclimation process? Here you will get 3 suggestions

1. Use a ammonia blocking agent in the bag – directly after you have open your bag – and after that - use the method you use today
   
2. Let the bag (unopen) be in your QT in order to get the same temperature. As @Maritimer suggest - you can adjust the salinity also – and after that – just put your fishes in the QT (I have to admit that I often do not adjust the salinity in these cases – just drop the fish in the tank after temperature adjustments)
   
3. Lower the pH in your QT to < 7 with help of bubbling some CO2 in it. Use this water (with the low pH) in the acclimation process as you do today (dripping tubes). Put the fishes in the QT and start to aerate the QT. The aeration will take out the CO2 and slowly rise the pH – after 12 hours – pH is normal.

The third method I have used many times when we have had fishes with transport times > 24 hours. It’s the best method I have used but I use all three methods now and when

I´m not saying that ammonia toxification is the reason for your lost – but it can be. Why have not both got the same way – paired pair must have come from the same tank. I can be so easy that the one that die has eaten more or later compared with the other. IMO – a fish that should be transported more than 24 hour should not be given any food at least 48 (I prefer 72) hour prior to the transport.

I hope this will help you a little

Sincerely Lasse

For sure. I thought about putting some prime in the shipping water as soon as I opened the bag but not knowing if there was copper in the water or not stopped me. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Instigate]

^^ This; a fish which has been in transport for several hours will expel waste, but so long as the bag is sealed it will only produce non-toxic ammonium. However, once the bag is opened that non-toxic ammonium gets converted into toxic ammonia (takes about 30 minutes).

So, if you are going to do drip acclimation on a shipped fish always use an ammonia reducer like Amquel or Prime. Just be sure the fish wasn't shipped in copper or medicated water of any kind before using a reducer.

Does anyone know if DD uses copper? Or I should just always ask them on each fish?

 

[Humblefish]

Does anyone know if DD uses copper? Or I should just always ask them on each fish?

I don't think they do, but I'm not 100% sure. My understanding is they only use copper on a fish on an as-needed basis i.e. the fish shows symptoms of ich or velvet.

 

[Lasse]

So, if you are going to do drip acclimation on a shipped fish always use an ammonia reducer like Amquel or Prime. Just be sure the fish wasn't shipped in copper or medicated water of any kind before using a reducer.

New information for me - can you explain further?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Maritimer]

With my last order from LiveAquaria (not DD), I asked about salinity and copper. Was told that they don't use copper, ever, and that salinity would be about 1.020.

Bags arrived at 1.0145.

I didn't use prime, just adjusted QT to 1.0145.

~Bruce

 

[Humblefish]

New information for me - can you explain further?

Using Cupramine as an example...

Prime, Amquel, etc. are reducing agents. Therefore, they have the potential to reduce Cupramine from it's safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu2+. (FWIW; mixing formalin with Cupramine does the same thing.)

I've also experienced dead fish in QT shortly after mixing an ammonia reducer with Prazipro. I cannot explain scientifically why this sometimes happens, but I suspect it has something to do with the Oxybispropanol (inert solubilizing agent) that Prazipro contains. Oxybispropanol is notorious for fueling bacterial blooms when Prazipro is mixed with other medications.

 

[Lasse]

@Humblefish

Thank you

Sincerely Lasse