Biodiversity- Starting completely sterile vs natural stuff

[Torps]

I'm curious about the long term effects of what goes in the tank. How would two tanks differ at 5-10 years if one was kept "sterile" (dead rock, chemicals to start, no contact with any ocean), vs a tank that has rock/sand from the ocean? Would tanks be different if everything was harvested from the Gulf of Mexico, Pacific, Atlantic, others?

I've read a good bit about pros/cons from doing it either way, but they are all about starting the tank. It seems that keeping the tank "sterile" would have a vastly decreased number of different organisms, but I'm not even sure if that matters.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm curious about the long term effects of what goes in the tank. How would two tanks differ at 5-10 years if one was kept "sterile" (dead rock, chemicals to start, no contact with any ocean), vs a tank that has rock/sand from the ocean? Would tanks be different if everything was harvested from the Gulf of Mexico, Pacific, Atlantic, others?

I've read a good bit about pros/cons from doing it either way, but they are all about starting the tank. It seems that keeping the tank "sterile" would have a vastly decreased number of different organisms, but I'm not even sure if that matters.

Yes, biodiversity matters greatly to put it plainly. What happens when something inevitably disrupts the very few microorganisms (not necessarily bacteria) in your sterile tank for whatever reason? It causes a domino effect that has the potential to affect everything.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are certainly differences. Whether those differences relate to or are reflected in biodiversity later in the aquarium is a different question without a clear answer, IMO.

Perhaps the issues are as simple as coralline vs none, or a few species of bacteria already colonizing and blocking the rock surfaces.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Generally the less biodiversity, the less resilient to changes.

 

[Torps]

Any guesses what you’d expect if you made an aquarium from local sources? If you just want to your local beach and picked up a bunch of rocks? I imagine there are big differences between a Louisiana and Fl Keys. Would you discourage dropping a crab trap full of reefsaver rock and retrieving it in a month or two?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would you discourage dropping a crab trap full of reefsaver rock and retrieving it in a month or two?

IMO, that's an interesting plan. Not unlike the aquacultured live rock, but not waiting as long.

 

[fish farmer]

Any guesses what you’d expect if you made an aquarium from local sources? If you just want to your local beach and picked up a bunch of rocks? I imagine there are big differences between a Louisiana and Fl Keys. Would you discourage dropping a crab trap full of reefsaver rock and retrieving it in a month or two?

Back in the day at college I seeded my 38 gallon fish only tank with a couple of seaweed covered stones, my tank exploded with copepods, amphipods, and other micro life.

PaulB routinely collects mud and water from long island sound and if you know where to look in the early fall you can find juvenile tropical fish as far north as Rhode Island before the water temp kills them.

 

[JoJosReef]

What are the risks of just walking over to the beach, going a few meters into the surf and scooping up some sand/shells/rubble for your tank? Would that have beneficial bacteria/microorganisms if it's in the surf? How about baddies?

I've never actually thought about it, but being a 15 min drive from CA beach cities...

OR, what about the silt-ier sand in a bay like in Newport Beach, CA?

 

[Torps]

Well I did some reading and the general answer is somwhere between no and it's risky. Close to the beach is higher risk than a mile or two out. On top of that there's human pollutants to worry about. One thread I read had a guy showing his acquisition of a rock with some super invasive algae on it. With some education in identifying the obvious bad actors, It's probably no riskier than buying live rock that's been cultured in the "wild" online though. Grabbing a couple seashells probably achieves the same end, but a longer timeframe.

 

[jabberwock]

Make sure you read up on local collection laws before doing this sort of thing. Collection activities are likely regulated by the local DNR.

 

[JoJosReef]

Make sure you read up on local collection laws before doing this sort of thing. Collection activities are likely regulated by the local DNR.

Good point! In any case, I just bought a Fiji Mud booster for the biodiversity bit :~)

 

[Torps]

Make sure you read up on local collection laws before doing this sort of thing. Collection activities are likely regulated by the local DNR.

Last I read here in Florida, anything hard is no good, but soft stuff is fairly collectible and fish are fair game. I wonder if my own rock would become illegal once it became liverock. We have no reefs in the panhandle though. There are some artificial ones but no cool, colorful reef fish. Me and a bud caught a dozen or so fish for his tank years ago, and every single one was a burrower or a hider. All that work for a tank that looks empty.

You do need a fishing license though. You need some super exotic license to get lionfish. Killing them is encouraged though.

 

[christwendt]

I can’t speak factual but I can say my experience. I started with all natural dead rock and bottled bacteria. I then qted live rock from Australia for a month looking for pests. Since adding I feel my tank is a lot more mature sooner. It’s only 8 months and I’m keeping some difficult corrals like acropora. I feel the biodiversity has had a huge play but I can’t prove it per say.

 

[marcinpolak]

Both my new tanks were started with dry rock, but I did go to a lfs and get some rubble (that was super mature) to throw in the sump. Hopefully that helps a bit. I also have been dosing mb7 every week. I plan on turning the lights on once the tanks are 2 1/2 months old. A week before turning them on I plan on adding copepods and then the day lights go on add coralline.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What are the risks of just walking over to the beach, going a few meters into the surf and scooping up some sand/shells/rubble for your tank? Would that have beneficial bacteria/microorganisms if it's in the surf? How about baddies?

I've never actually thought about it, but being a 15 min drive from CA beach cities...

OR, what about the silt-ier sand in a bay like in Newport Beach, CA?

I’ve collected seawater for this reason, but noted nothing different after adding it to my tank.

IMO, all these things sound good, but there’s no evidence that they are that I have seen.

 

[pepper89]

I'm curious about the long term effects of what goes in the tank. How would two tanks differ at 5-10 years if one was kept "sterile" (dead rock, chemicals to start, no contact with any ocean), vs a tank that has rock/sand from the ocean? Would tanks be different if everything was harvested from the Gulf of Mexico, Pacific, Atlantic, others?

I've read a good bit about pros/cons from doing it either way, but they are all about starting the tank. It seems that keeping the tank "sterile" would have a vastly decreased number of different organisms, but I'm not even sure if that matters.

I would say the most eye-opening thing to me was watching a bunch of BRS Investigates. I don't think there is an easy one size fits all approach that will work in any situation. They were studying the ugly stages of aquariums, testing the biodiversity and various other things through a bunch of different types of tanks. This is when they came to the conclusion that it's less about having the most diversity and more about having the right balance of the right things. Though they link this water testing page that has just results from TONS of people's tanks, and I realize that a lot of them get into some really unique swings that work for that tank and situation, which means disaster in others.

I think the major highlights to me were:

• - The completely sterilized tank with nothing added, had no issues until the BRS team added them. So there is a chance that would have struggled with nothing because nothing was added. Though, it struggled a lot once those things were added, because it didn't have the natural predators for it, so it was able to get a stronger footing.
• - In comparison, the one with actual live rock (shipped in water), initially struggled a bit with things that none of the other tanks have because it was introduced from the ocean. Though it naturally also had predators and competitions for nutrients and space, it just took time for things to sort of get in a balance. They end up adding a bunch of copepods, which I think sort of distorts a really good view of what would have happened had they not, which really increased the bioload suddenly and caused its own issues, but tbh I think if they would have left it alone this one would have balanced out the fastest.
• -But the ones that had live sand or reef mud performed alright and had things it worked against and others it didn't. So I think it's a blend. and not just of bacteria and that stuff, but also like copepods and other just various life.

Personally, I think we have to think about it more as an entire mini-ecosystem that is unique to itself. Like Fiji, reefs aren't going to be the same as Florida reefs and would have different bacteria/diversity %/preditors/competitions, etc than the other. Just as one cove in Fiji might be completely different than surrounding waters on the same exact specifications. Maybe your "cove" has the exact same life as someone else's, but yours get a little more light, and a little less flow, because of whatever reason, so you grow bacteria X, Y, and Z instead of A or B. Maybe X, Y, and Z are really good at out-competing bacteria C or D, so you also have a limited supply of them, and that makes you struggle with dinos. Maybe A and B are really good at out-competing G and H so they deal with green hair, maybe both of you have plenty of L, M, N, O, and P so you never struggle with cyano. Eventually, you deal with a heater malfunction where yours is on, cooks N and O, and now you struggle with cyano a bit. They have a heater malfunction but theirs is left off, it gets too cold and freezes out L and M, so they also struggle with cyano. They fix theirs and the L and M come back for them, tell you how they did it, and you follow exactly as they did, but it doesn't bring back your N and O so you get some weird results they didn't get, but it gets your L and M high enough that now you don't need the N and O. So you have less diversity, but it's still in a good balance of each other, to out-compete cyano.

So yes, I do believe "diversity" can be important, but less important than say, having everything just get in a comfortable balance that you are personally able to manage, and unique to each setup. I think you could start 100 tanks with live rock, and 100 tanks with dry rock, do each of the pretty much the same, and just the simplest differences make bigger changes than anyone might realize. I think this is why sometimes when people tear down a tank and start over again, they get different results. Even if they use the same type of rock and products and everything down to a T the same, I think sometimes just luck, life, and chance play a role. Things we do that hurt us last time end up helping this time because we have different balances causing the same issue.

 

[Idech]

Perhaps the issues are as simple as coralline vs none, or a few species of bacteria already colonizing and blocking the rock surfaces.

I’ve started exactly as stated (dry rock, dry salt, nothing from the ocean) and I have a lot of coralline. It started early too.

As you add corals, you’re inevitably adding stuff from the ocean, including coralline. I‘m sure it’s far from as diverse as a tank that was started with live rock, but there is still a tiny little bit of the ocean that will someday get into a dry start tank.

 

[Spare time]

Keep in mind, fish, snails, coral, snails, and pretty much anything else bring in microbes and plankton.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm curious about the long term effects of what goes in the tank. How would two tanks differ at 5-10 years if one was kept "sterile" (dead rock, chemicals to start, no contact with any ocean), vs a tank that has rock/sand from the ocean? Would tanks be different if everything was harvested from the Gulf of Mexico, Pacific, Atlantic, others?

I've read a good bit about pros/cons from doing it either way, but they are all about starting the tank. It seems that keeping the tank "sterile" would have a vastly decreased number of different organisms, but I'm not even sure if that matters.

In the long run there is no difference what so ever, technically you could pick up some dirt from your garden and have all you need to start a reef tank (bacterial wise). Everything else will come in as you add corals etc…

 

[Seansea]

i bought 60lbs of dead rock and 20lbs of live rock. lfs's 40 year old vat that might as well be the ocean at this point. Cant beat live rock for the pods, bristleworms, bacteria , sponges corraline and all the other stuff that comes in it. Tank is almost 3 months old and the base rock is starting not look much different than the live rock and got all kinds of stuff going on. Did get a little bubble algae but not aptasia. Ill take bubble algae all day over aptasia