Biodiversity- Starting completely sterile vs natural stuff

[PotatoPig]

Keep in mind, fish, snails, coral, snails, and pretty much anything else bring in microbes and plankton.

I’ve been finding this in the short time I’ve been at it. Tank started from dry rock and bottle bac. Only things I’ve added have been fish, three hermit crabs and four snails.

Bonuses that I have noticed from this extremely modest seeding:

Aiptasia (one, think I caught it before it spread)

Little white worms (seem harmless, stuck one under the microscope and it looks like a dorvilleidae worm)

Bristleworm (removed at same time as Aiptasia - in same discarded shell)

Spirorbid worms

I assume getting a scoop of the discarded shells from the bottom of the LFS snail and hermit tanks would be an ultra budget way to add random biodiversity.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Any guesses what you’d expect if you made an aquarium from local sources? If you just want to your local beach and picked up a bunch of rocks? I imagine there are big differences between a Louisiana and Fl Keys. Would you discourage dropping a crab trap full of reefsaver rock and retrieving it in a month or two?

Check local regulations. Some places, the rock cannot touch the ground. If it does, the ocean owns in. @Eagle_Steve does this and calls them dock rocks.

 

[Spare time]

I’ve been finding this in the short time I’ve been at it. Tank started from dry rock and bottle bac. Only things I’ve added have been fish, three hermit crabs and four snails.

Bonuses that I have noticed from this extremely modest seeding:

Aiptasia (one, think I caught it before it spread)

Little white worms (seem harmless, stuck one under the microscope and it looks like a dorvilleidae worm)

Bristleworm (removed at same time as Aiptasia - in same discarded shell)

Spirorbid worms

I assume getting a scoop of the discarded shells from the bottom of the LFS snail and hermit tanks would be an ultra budget way to add random biodiversity.

The idea that you need live rock for the superstitious "biodiversity" (whatever that means) is just nonsense.

 

[jabberwock]

The idea that you need live rock for the superstitious "biodiversity" (whatever that means) is just nonsense.

Hmmmm, I don't think it is nonsense. It seems scientifically intuitive that the larger the system, the more diversity it inherently holds.

 

[srobertb]

I have cycled tanks with completely dead rock. It took 2 years. There were literal months where I gave up and didn’t even clean the glass it was so bad. Why? I used dead rock due to a Eunice worm that I believe came in on some gulf live rock and obliterated a tank so I wanted to try something new.

I always used gulf live rock before and I always will moving forward. I just cycled my sump and refugium in 7 days for my new build with some Gulf Live rock. There will be some diatoms from the sand but sa la vie. What took 2 years took about 5 days.

Biodiversity adds stability. Stability is key. So many people on here chasing numbers and adding x to combat y on here.

You need to add what you subtract, sure. But I believe biodiversity negates the need for algaecides and fungacides and all these chemicals that people use to chase numbers. “My phosphates have to be x and my nitrates have to be y or my tank will die!” That doesn’t sound like fun at all. Let your tank find balance, be thoughtful with what equipment you use to maintain that balance, and you will be fine. People dosing phosphates and things just feels like unnecessary work.

my 2 cents.

 

[srobertb]

Hmmmm, I don't think it is nonsense. It seems scientifically intuitive that the larger the system, the more diversity it inherently holds.

If I have one species that eats or controls something else -and don’t get it twisted: everything in your tanks feeds or checks something else- dies, then you have chaos. Biodiversity is ABSOLUTELY the key here.

Remove a block from a carefully constructed tower and it may fall. Remove a block from a pile of blocks, very little will happen.

Part of reefing is NOT trying to control everything. It’s stabilizing what you can. Being thoughtful. But most of it is letting things happen.

 

[jabberwock]

I have cycled tanks with completely dead rock. It took 2 years. There were literal months where I gave up and didn’t even clean the glass it was so bad. Why? I used dead rock due to a Eunice worm that I believe came in on some gulf live rock and obliterated a tank so I wanted to try something new.

I always used gulf live rock before and I always will moving forward. I just cycled my sump and refugium in 7 days for my new build with some Gulf Live rock. There will be some diatoms from the sand but sa la vie. What took 2 years took about 5 days.

Biodiversity adds stability. Stability is key. So many people on here chasing numbers and adding x to combat y on here.

You need to add what you subtract, sure. But I believe biodiversity negates the need for algaecides and fungacides and all these chemicals that people use to chase numbers. “My phosphates have to be x and my nitrates have to be y or my tank will die!” That doesn’t sound like fun at all. Let your tank find balance, be thoughtful with what equipment you use to maintain that balance, and you will be fine. People dosing phosphates and things just feels like unnecessary work.

my 2 cents.

Yep - ocean live rock for the win!

 

[Spare time]

Hmmmm, I don't think it is nonsense. It seems scientifically intuitive that the larger the system, the more diversity it inherently holds.

There's nothing scientific about the way biodiversity is used on this forum. Do we mean different kinds of living things? If so, a variety of surfaces arrive from a variety of places (such as what I mentioned), one could argue it to be more "diverse" compared to a rock where all the organisms live in the same environment, locality, and what not. Are we talking about algae species? Macroalgae is more likely to hop over via live rock simply because of their size. Are we talking about crabs? Anemones? Zooplankton, Protists? Live rock definitely brings a better diversity of crabs if that is "biodiverse." There isn't a reliable definition of "biodiversity" on this forum, and its often used as a superstition partially because its poorly defined. Its often used as an answer to a variety of problems even though none of these people can say why or provide anything outside their hypothesis or observation of a phenomena. So technically, your answer and my answer are both bringing more "biodiversity" than the other.

 

[jabberwock]

There's nothing scientific about the way biodiversity is used on this forum. Do we mean different kinds of living things? If so, a variety of surfaces arrive from a variety of places (such as what I mentioned), one could argue it to be more "diverse" compared to a rock where all the organisms live in the same environment, locality, and what not. Are we talking about algae species? Macroalgae is more likely to hop over via live rock simply because of their size. Are we talking about crabs? Anemones? Zooplankton, Protists? Live rock definitely brings a better diversity of crabs if that is "biodiverse." There isn't a reliable definition of "biodiversity" on this forum, and its often used as a superstition partially because its poorly defined. Its often used as an answer to a variety of problems even though none of these people can say why or provide anything outside their hypothesis or observation of a phenomena. So technically, your answer and my answer are both bringing more "biodiversity" than the other.

Fair enough, but I am not referring to science as it is wielded in this forum. I understand what you are saying, but I can't lower the standards of science to adhere to a lack of understanding of the discipline. In fact, I fight against that every day in my line of work.

Biodiversity has long been used as a measure of the health of ecosystems. So, no argument from me, and perhaps a little insight for others.

 

[JoJosReef]

There's nothing scientific about the way biodiversity is used on this forum. Do we mean different kinds of living things? If so, a variety of surfaces arrive from a variety of places (such as what I mentioned), one could argue it to be more "diverse" compared to a rock where all the organisms live in the same environment, locality, and what not. Are we talking about algae species? Macroalgae is more likely to hop over via live rock simply because of their size. Are we talking about crabs? Anemones? Zooplankton, Protists? Live rock definitely brings a better diversity of crabs if that is "biodiverse." There isn't a reliable definition of "biodiversity" on this forum, and its often used as a superstition partially because its poorly defined. Its often used as an answer to a variety of problems even though none of these people can say why or provide anything outside their hypothesis or observation of a phenomena. So technically, your answer and my answer are both bringing more "biodiversity" than the other.

I don't think a scientific approach to this is feasible. Happy to take care of it for you if anyone wants to fund me a few (make that several) million to do all of the sequencing, phylogeny and "field work" to get data on what compositions of microorganisms and macroorganisms result in the most successful tanks. Will also need a healthy budget for stats, since I see a lot of machine learning in this study.

Joking aside, hard to say what's best, because I've been to see locals with very successful tanks that never saw a live rock other than what's glued to a plug. And also locals with OLD tanks with real reef rocks that've been in use for decades.

However, there are lots of anecdotes of fixing common problems with nuisance algae/bacteria by introducing greater diversity of beneficial microorganisms from ocean rocks (presumed to have far more species of beneficial microorganisms than bottled bacteria and frags... Presumption, yes. Would like to see some deep sequencing analysis). Fixed my tank, at least, after trying other approaches.

 

[Torps]

My thought about the term “biodiversity” is how many different kinds/species of living things… I guess mainly focused on microscopic organisms. If you take a big scoop out of a reef, I’d guess that there are millions of species of things living in that scoop. It just seems unlikely to get millions of species out of a bottle. But as stated before, it must get in there by adding various critters.

somewhat related: there’s a YouTuber out there who scoops dirt from random places into a mason jar, fills with water, and seals it. They make little ecosystems and live for months. So I guess if you’re not too particular how your aquarium looks, it can be a very easy hobby.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Check local regulations. Some places, the rock cannot touch the ground. If it does, the ocean owns in. @Eagle_Steve does this and calls them dock rocks.

@Torps

The regulations vary from state to state, but most states do not allow you to take live rock. But, if smaller pieces, think seashell size, are taken with some shells, the FWC is not going to write you a ticket. Take a 5-10lb rock, they will.

In Florida, you can use mined rock or any other thing to aid a crab trap in not getting moved by the tides, or keeping it stable when not on the bottom and being used for swimming crabs. This is a loop hole to allow someone to take previously dead rocks, throw them in the ocean, leave them there and let them become "live rocks". The trick to this is that they can never touch the bottom outside of the trap. I have a dock on the Indian River Lagoon that I use for my boat and a few crab traps. The traps are tagged per regulation, affixed to the dock with a stainless chain, and stay there year round. When down there, I bait them up and do catch blue craps and stone crabs with them. When not there, they are unbaited, trap door is open, and they just soak. I currently have about 25lbs of rock in each one soaking as well. The rocks are not like you would find from TBLR or KP in terms of the amount of life. They do have coralline, sponges, feather dusters, and macro on them. But not corals, larger starfish, etc. Most of the time they end up with smaller crabs, pods (lots of them), juvenile fish (all released back at the dock) and the occasional urchin. I have also never had an issue with any disease from them. The "open ocean" is a lot of water with a lot of tiny mouths. Ich for example is the size of what a lot of corals can consume. So all that water, all those mouths, ich is not a problem. It only becomes a problem in a glass box with not as much water and more of a chance for the swimming stage to attach to a fish. Not saying you cannot get it, but the chances are extremely low IMO.

I will say, that in using older rock and swapping out rocks from time to time with dock rocks, my tanks stay more stable, do not have as many issues if something does go out of whack, all of the fish pairs spawn, corals that are on deaths door at the LFS from a leaky bag/just a half dead coral sent almost always recover, and overall the tank just does well. In addition, I do not have algae issues, even when I set up a new tank with them. There are just too many competitors for the algae to get a foot hold and take off. Not saying you could not end up with massive algae, but proper husbandry and the rock gives you a nice head start.

 

[PotatoPig]

In Florida, you can use mined rock or any other thing to aid a crab trap in not getting moved by the tides, or keeping it stable when not on the bottom and being used for swimming crabs. This is a loop hole to allow someone to take previously dead rocks, throw them in the ocean, leave them there and let them become "live rocks". The trick to this is that they can never touch the bottom outside of the trap.

So, I note that some of the live rock sources often recommend here are based in Florida… how are they getting their rock? Or is this something to not probe too deeply about.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmmmm, I don't think it is nonsense. It seems scientifically intuitive that the larger the system, the more diversity it inherently holds.

The question is not the biodiversiy, but the actual benefit of increasing biodiversity in this fashion.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

So, I note that some of the live rock sources often recommend here are based in Florida… how are they getting their rock? Or is this something to probe too deeply about.

They have seabed leases off the coast. Due to this, they can dump loads of rock on those leases and let it mature. This actually does 2 things. It allows for them to harvest a sustainable live rock source and it also provides aid to the fishery. I know where TBLR and KP have rock piles and have fished those piles before with great success. Win Win for them and the sea life.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, I note that some of the live rock sources often recommend here are based in Florida… how are they getting their rock? Or is this something to probe too deeply about.

One way: Licenses where they lease a plot of undersea bed, and put their own rock on it.

About Us – Tampa Bay Saltwater

"I had the wonderful opportunity of being a pioneer in the aqua cultured live rock industry here in Florida. I received the first and only five acre lease for aquaculture of live rock here in the State of Florida off the west coast of Florida almost forty years ago.".

 

[Timfish]

Would love to see some really long term studies, as in decades, as the reefs systems we set up and many of the animals we add should live decades if not centuries with the proper care. (Keeping a reef system 4 or 5 years is like keeping a puppy or kitten 4 or 5 months.)

Everything done ar added to a system is going to be a variable. Besides variations in maintenenace regimens every animal added and liekly the sequence added will alter things some how, and not just at the species level, there can be significant differences between specimens of the same species at the genotype level. All the research I've seen the microbial processes are in constant flux and there can be fluctuations down to the daily diurnal cycle. As discussed above, how do we keep the right amount of the right things.

 

[Torps]

I think my current plan is to make my own live rock. Sure there's a risk of baddies, but it can't be too much higher than ordering from Tampa Bay... and It'd be a good conversation piece to say I have a piece of the Gulf in my living room. I'll sail out a mile or two with some reef saver or something and let it soak for a month or so. I'll start a build thread to document.

This is after a conversation with FWC of course. It appears that regulations are far more lax for individuals than commercial.

 

[jabberwock]

I think my current plan is to make my own live rock. Sure there's a risk of baddies, but it can't be too much higher than ordering from Tampa Bay... and It'd be a good conversation piece to say I have a piece of the Gulf in my living room. I'll sail out a mile or two with some reef saver or something and let it soak for a month or so. I'll start a build thread to document.

This is after a conversation with FWC of course. It appears that regulations are far more lax for individuals than commercial.

I would follow that thread. Give it six months soak though.