Biota Regal Angle too small be sucessful.

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This is a request email sent to Biota. My request was denied, as it past the seven day return policy period. The Regal Angel died. He never ate well and finally died. I think for the home aquarist they are way too small to be successful. I have been an excellent customer in the past and I am requesting a refund or a full credit, so I can order something else in place of the Regal Angle. I can't afford to take the loss and continue buying from Biota. I know for a fact that you have received many orders because of my recommendations.
Please be fair and issue a refund or a credit. My 240 gallon tank is absolutely perfect and I am an advanced aquarist.
This Regal Angle was received much too stressed and too small requiring a lot of time to attend to. I would like to be able to issue a five star review on line for you.
I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BE SELLING A DELICATE FISH THAT IS ONLY HALF AN INCH IN SIZE. THEY SHOULD BE GROWN OUT FIRST.




Thank you
 
I agree that I may have been too small. But I don’t think it should be put into a 200+ gallon display tank. Maybe a 20 gallon quarantine with plenty of natural food source. Just my opinion though.
 
They are small and I would never add one to a large tank. I won't add any fish directly to a DT. They all go into a observation tanks to adjust and make sure they are eating well. A little fish like a biota regal would go into a grow out tank which is an established 40g breeder. I have a little hippo tang growing out now.
 
They are small and I would never add one to a large tank. I won't add any fish directly to a DT. They all go into a observation tanks to adjust and make sure they are eating well. A little fish like a biota regal would go into a grow out tank which is an established 40g breeder. I have a little hippo tang growing out now.

I agree that I may have been too small. But I don’t think it should be put into a 200+ gallon display tank. Maybe a 20 gallon quarantine with plenty of natural food source. Just my opinion though.
The tiny Regal Angle was contained in an acclimation box in my 240 gallon tank. I tried feeding it many different varieties. I kept it past the 7 day return period to give it a chance to acclimate and hopefully begin to eat. It was received very stressed out and very weak. Felicia at Biota of course claimed that it is past their 7 day return period. Its all about the money. I think that Biota is doing a great job in sustainable fish breeding, but in this case they should be more reasonable about a purchase of over $400 for a fish that should be grown out to a much larger size to make the experience more successfully probable for the consumer.
 

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One Half Inch? Really that small? I wouldn't feel comfortable with a fish that tiny, even in a cycled established Nano Tank with live rock as the only fish. Just no margin for error and a lot of work to boot.
 
Yeah agree, thats why when I got my regal she was wild caught from a good vendor.
 
This was recently brought up on FB and addressed directly to Wen-Ping Su (owner of Bali Aquarich that breeds them). It was about their Multibars but same applies to the Regal. I totally and completely agree that they need to be grown out to ideally more along the 1.5-2” range than selling them at half an inch. Let’s get @Biota_Marine on board with this.

Economically, it’s a win-win for both the hobbyist and the vendor even if some time and money is sacrificed at first. It means a higher success rate for us, which means we won’t have to spend on multiple attempts, and it means more customer satisfaction in the long haul. I only see a lot to gain from taking a bit more time to grow them out to a slightly bigger size where they’re more resilient to the stress of shipping and not being fed during transit or in a newer tank.

I do agree that it’s best to not introduce them to an established group of larger fish that already know how to get food.

Poma Labs, with their Conspics and Tiger Angels, grow them out to 1.5-2” and I believe they’re a model.

Just my $0.02. It’s the only way that’s both ethical (sustainable), while also ensuring the best result from a business standpoint in terms of the bigger picture.

This is about solidarity as a hobby between hobbyists and industry leaders. We need that more than ever, in the face of politics and environmental concerns.

And @Biota_Marine I feel is great to bring this concern to someone like Su. You guys are pioneers and innovators with staying power. That’s a lot more than just anyone making a petition.
 
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We understand and are very sorry to hear about the loss of your fish. As we discussed previously, your order was received on July 9th, and the Regal perished on September 7th which is far outside our 7 Day Guarantee Policy.

Our Livestock Guarantee covers the first 7 days after arrival, and your Regal passed away about two months after arrival. This timeframe is important, because if a fish passes within that 7 day window, it’s usually linked to shipping stress or another factor that we could have influenced. When a fish passes after that period, it’s generally a sign that the fish arrived healthy, and the outcome was out of our control. That’s why we ask customers to contact us right away if they notice any unusual behavioral, feeding, or health issues. Often we can help troubleshoot early and prevent the death of the fish.

Our policies are in place because our animals are cared for from egg to the size you receive which is months of dedication, grow-out, and care to ensure a healthy product for every single one of our customers. This means our investment into each and every fish is that much more than wild caught animal vendors. We truly care about every animal that leaves our facility and it is incredibly unfortunate when they do not survive, so in instances of loss we are just as upset as our customers.

Our Regal Angelfish are captive bred and sold at a small size, but size doesn’t affect their survivability or the survivability of our other captive bred fish. However, Regal Angelfish are generally a difficult species to keep because of their sensitive nature. It’s similar to wild caught seahorses, which often have low survival rates even in expert hands, while captive bred seahorses do much better, though they’re still considered to be sensitive and have species specific care requirements.

We provide customers with all the basic information needed to care for Regals specifically in the product description with links to more in depth articles about their care and potential vulnerabilities.

I understand that this isn’t the outcome you were hoping for, but we do stand by our policies to make things fair and consistent for everyone. I hope this helps clarify why we can’t issue a store credit for a loss that happened months outside of the guarantee window.

Thank you for understanding, and we hope we can still support you with your aquarium in the future.
 
This was recently brought up on FB and addressed directly to Wen-Ping Su (owner of Bali Aquarich that breeds them). It was about their Multibars but same applies to the Regal. I totally and completely agree that they need to be grown out to ideally more along the 1.5-2” range than selling them at half an inch. Let’s get @Biota_Marine on board with this.

Economically, it’s a win-win for both the hobbyist and the vendor even if some time and money is sacrificed at first. It means a higher success rate for us, which means we won’t have to spend on multiple attempts, and it means more customer satisfaction in the long haul. I only see a lot to gain from taking a bit more time to grow them out to a slightly bigger size where they’re more resilient to the stress of shipping and not being fed during transit or in a newer tank.

I do agree that it’s best to not introduce them to an established group of larger fish that already know how to get food.

Poma Labs, with their Conspics and Tiger Angels, grow them out to 1.5-2” and I believe they’re a model.

Just my $0.02. It’s the only way that’s both ethical (sustainable), while also ensuring the best result from a business standpoint in terms of the bigger picture.

This is about solidarity as a hobby between hobbyists and industry leaders. We need that more than ever, in the face of politics and environmental concerns.

And @Biota_Marine I feel is great to bring this concern to someone like Su. You guys are pioneers and innovators with staying power. That’s a lot more than just anyone making a petition.
I also wanted to provide a bit of insight on this:

As you may have noticed over the last few years we started offering multiple sizing for things like Yellow tang and Mandarins and even our baseline sizing on those species has increased slowly. This is because we've had years of development, investment, production, and improvements as we continue to breed species as well as hobbyist support and requests for multiple sizes. When we breed species in house we have the ability to do that.

With regals as you mentioned they're bred at another farm and while we house them for a few weeks at our Florida facility, make sure everyone is healthy and eating our distribution facility isn't really built for grow-out like many breeding facilities are. The cost to double the sizing would close down a much larger portion of that customer base. We mention in the description and have specifically written articles about regal angelfish because they are a more sensitive species. The goldflake, multibar, golden, and other angelfish are sold at a similar sizing but can be much easier to keep and more forgiving. We also update the sizing accurately with every batch that comes in so customers are not surprised by sizing and fully understand the care requirements. We have had batches of larger regals and sold them as such in the past so it really depends on availability as well as customer ability.

If customers did not have success then we wouldn't continue with the species. That's one of the main reasons why I don't often bring in batfish despite being seasonally available and highly in demand. The species is incredibly difficult (even captive-bred), most hobbyists don't have the right size aquarium, they get big, they're aggressive, and the success rate is dismal. Any time we get requests we have lengthy back and forths with the customer on the care and success rates to disuade customers from wanting them and every batch we purchase we lose money.

With companies like Poma labs it's much easier to grow to that sizing because the cost of those species and much lower overhead. Adding a few hundred dollars to multi-thousand dollar fish with already a limited market doesn't impact that audience but many can see on forums or socials that if we increase pricing of practically any of our species (even if it means larger sizing, regular availability, or better quality) there is backlash because it's compared to historical wild caught pricing or what some feel the right pricing should be.

All that being said, I know Poma has had recent success with regal angelfish so possibly with multiple sourcing on our end we will be able to offer different sizing and availability for the species in the future.
 
Jake, I respect Biota Labs and what you guys are doing. These tiny Regals have special requirements and a time commitment that many Hobbyists may not be aware of. The .5-inch size makes grow out in a separate Tank a necessity and could take 6 months to a year before most might feel comfortable adding them to a DT. The success record based on Posts on this and other Forums is low for a Captive Bred Fish and flies in the face of Captive Bred sustainable fish. You say and I quote, "If customers did not have success then we wouldn't continue with the species." Yes, there are success stories, but what survival rate does Biota consider "success"? Customer feedback should be final word on whether Biota continues with this species.
 
Jake, I respect Biota Labs and what you guys are doing. These tiny Regals have special requirements and a time commitment that many Hobbyists may not be aware of. The .5-inch size makes grow out in a separate Tank a necessity and could take 6 months to a year before most might feel comfortable adding them to a DT. The success record based on Posts on this and other Forums is low for a Captive Bred Fish and flies in the face of Captive Bred sustainable fish. You say and I quote, "If customers did not have success then we wouldn't continue with the species." Yes, there are success stories, but what survival rate does Biota consider "success"? Customer feedback should be final word on whether Biota continues with this species.
I'm super happy to have this discourse and breakdown some of how I think about sustainability in the hobby and what we see with success rates vs what's perceived by forums.

1. Our in house data shows that in the last 6 months DOA/DAA on the regal angelfish from both retail and wholesale is less than 10%. Within that 10% that also includes shipping delays, packing malfunction, improper prophylactic treatment, bullying, poor acclimation process, and others. It's such a rare occurrance that we knew OP's details purely because it was a mortality of a regal within the last 3 month, not even one within our DOA/DAA period and we could provide those additional details they left out that they were in their care for 3 months.

2. Hobbyists and customers need to be aware of special care requirements which is why we mention it in the description of the species and every species we sell. We took the time to individually write out these descriptions so customers have the highest chance of success. Education is fundamental to having success in this hobby, you see it everytime someone asks about a mandarin, copperbands, morish idols, and seahorses that they all require special care. Please contact us! We help hobbyists out daily via email or chat function on the website, even people that aren't our customers with products from other stores and breeders because we believe it's fundamental to the hobby. We are incredibly open, I want to answer as many questions as possible before you buy our animals so you succeed rather than this discussion happening after the fact, I disuade so many hobbyists from fish they don't have the time or ability to care for. We succeed when you succeed and I don't want to put any of our fish into bad situations.

3. When the regals were first announced they came into the US through multiple wholesalers and as we mention special care for hobbyists it's the same for stores and distributors. When we receive them from the farm they're acclimated specifically, fed diets on specific schedules, given room to settle in, no other tank mates, system just for them, and held longer than hardier angelfish (we actually do the same for multibars too). Not every company has the ability or experience to do that which I believe is why we saw so much mortality when they were first announced and we had to educate that they may be cheaper through other vendors but cheaper isn't always better.

I believe our duty is to both educate and provide a healthy fish to hobbyists that want a sustainable alternative.
 
Jake, thanks for the reply. If I could offer one piece of advice it would be to clearly state the growth rate in your specifications. I have been following the progress of a Member of another Forum who has been successfully raising a Biota Regal in a separate dedicated tank setup specifically for this fish. He seems satisfied so far, however is discouraged by the growth rate after almost 9 months and maybe 1.5 inches now.
 
Jake, thanks for the reply. If I could offer one piece of advice it would be to clearly state the growth rate in your specifications. I have been following the progress of a Member of another Forum who has been successfully raising a Biota Regal in a separate dedicated tank setup specifically for this fish. He seems satisfied so far, however is discouraged by the growth rate after almost 9 months and maybe 1.5 inches now.
I think you mean Reggie! Yes, we've been following Reggie and Mando for a while. It should take an average of 6 months or so for a Pomacanthid angelfish to go from 0.5" to 1.5" but that can vary depending on environmental factors, feeding, etc. I have a feeling once Reggie is put into a larger display tank with a lot of swimming room, she may have an explosion in growth. These tend to grow most quickly at juvenile stages, then growth will slow down a bit. - Felicia
 
Jake, I respect Biota Labs and what you guys are doing. These tiny Regals have special requirements and a time commitment that many Hobbyists may not be aware of. The .5-inch size makes grow out in a separate Tank a necessity and could take 6 months to a year before most might feel comfortable adding them to a DT. The success record based on Posts on this and other Forums is low for a Captive Bred Fish and flies in the face of Captive Bred sustainable fish. You say and I quote, "If customers did not have success then we wouldn't continue with the species." Yes, there are success stories, but what survival rate does Biota consider "success"? Customer feedback should be final word on whether Biota continues with this species.

I disagree. We don't know why the failures happen and it would appear that most failures are right or wrong attributed to the fish size rather than the hobbyist. I know that is a bit bluntly put but we can't just assume it is the size of the fish but rather focus on how the fish is handled post arrival.

Yes, they are small but let me ask a few questions:
  • Are the fish purchased direct from Biota or from secondary supplier?
  • Are the quarantined?
  • If quarantined, what protocols, what medication(s) and/or chemicals?
  • Isolation, observation?
  • Food? Did we have the listed food Biota uses on-hand? Proper size? Quality, and sized, frozen?
  • Introduction to display path?
  • Acclimation box?

It is of both my opinion, and experience, that captive bred fish should be, depending on the type and size, placed in an isolation tank with corals, rock, and substrate. This gives the hobbyist time to manually feed, and observe, what they eat and how they behave. What corals they may nip on both in curiosity and destructive. Give small portions of food, frequently, to see what they consume, vs strike, vs in passing, vs aggressively and chasing (what they like, like ice cream for example). Flow is controlled due to the size. Rock and corals are to keep them occupied and focused. Some, on the other hand, need to go into a more mature system due to their foraging needs and need for protection from the reef structure. In this instance the hobbyist needs to see if that is acceptable to them or not (risk factor). I place both the multibar and regal in this category and more often than not this is what I see that makes the success from failures although I'm not keeping track.

In short - treat the captive bred, raised, fish as you would a kitten or a puppy. They need more tender loving care before they can accompany you on your daily walk.

90% percent of my fish are from Biota direct and each one arrived tiny or small. Smallest being the size of a US nickel. I prefer captive bred, raised, as it gives me an rough estimate of their age, I get to see color transition, and behavior changes. Only one has been through QT and that purchase was only because it was part of a larger order from members and needed a home.

Here is my list of course it does not have a regal or a multibar but maybe one day when I upgrade.

  • Blue Tang
  • Gold Lined Rabbit
  • (4) Pink Square Anthias
  • Matted Filefish
  • Radial Filefish
  • Milletseed Butterflyfish
  • Links Goby
  • Upside Down Goby
  • (11) Lyretail Damsels
  • Blue Neon Cleaner Goby

TL; DR - It is of my opinion that the size is not the issue but rather the hobbyist not having an environment that can support the size of the animal. We are, by default, uses to buying larger animals which have different requirements than those of a young fish. Thus the kitten, puppy, reference. There are plenty of success stories out there.

Hope your day is well. None of this was meant to be aggressive so if it comes across that way I apologize. I just disagree is all. No harm or foul.
 
I think the question is how small is too small to give a fish a fighting chance of survival? I'm sure that there are some Experts that could raise Captive Bred Regals and Multibars from fry with minor losses, however the resources and time commitment is beyond the average Hobbyist. Your example of a Kitten or a Puppy is flawed as no reparable breeder would sell an animal before it was weened. Unfortunately, there is no strict rule of thumb about breeding fish or even importing tiny WC fish and at what point the survivability becomes a challenge. As previously stated by Biota, " It should take an average of 6 months or so for a Pomacanthid angelfish to go from 0.5" to 1.5" " is a disclosure that should be in the website description. Since most Angels require a large DT, I think most Hobbyists, myself included would not add a 1.5" fish into a DT with large fish, especially after investing 6 months of time and special care in a separate tank.
 
I bought three CB Regal angels but only ended up with 1. two of the three died due to no one stupidity but my own.
They already have food that they are eating and as long as they are in a stress-free environment, they should do fine.
I do suggest that @Biota_Marine send 1-2 months supply of food free with each baby Regal. The cost of this is minimal and will really help out the brand-new Regal Angel owner a lot. It took me quite a few days before I find food that are small enough for my fish to eat.
 
I bought three CB Regal angels but only ended up with 1. two of the three died due to no one stupidity but my own.
They already have food that they are eating and as long as they are in a stress-free environment, they should do fine.
I do suggest that @Biota_Marine send 1-2 months supply of food free with each baby Regal. The cost of this is minimal and will really help out the brand-new Regal Angel owner a lot. It took me quite a few days before I find food that are small enough for my fish to eat.

@Biota_Marine It would be great to know the brand and size of food to feed the regal to have it on hand before its arrival. Thank you
 

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