Bolus dosing

[Mo.]

mate-

The bottom line is you got nothing to show.

Out of curiosity, are you on FM payroll/ influencer or what do you get out of this.
Just so you know not everything on the internet is true or accurate etc…

If we keep this up next you will be asking me to search the internet to prove there is Santa (as mentioned in post 592).

Unless you have something to show, we are done.

Good luck,

Ok-

How many times did I say that I was not affiliated?!

Not sure what you mean by I have nothing to show?

I posted the pH curve, which I find interesting. I posted my personal observations. I also explained why I currently use Kalkwasser.

You can see my old tank thread here

https://forums.reefcentral.com/threads/mos-1000g-sps-tank.1829471/page-4

and you can see My new one here.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mo’s-reef-2.867448/

You will see I know how to grow a coral or two and have been doing it for some time.

Yes- many companies want me to be affiliated and I guess you can see why, but I have paid for everything I use
On this system.

I hope that clears that up.

I saw something interesting in bolus.

like it and I’m interested in hearing and learning a thing or two about why or how it works.

It not working is nonsense, because I have used it .

I’m happy to answer any questions about my system, but this thread is about bolus and why it works or why it doesn’t.

Cheers
Mo

 

[Mo.]

I use AFR and do not see any raise to my pH. Could be that I spread my dosing throughout the day but I don't recall ever seeing any bump.

What has AFR got to do with bolus?

 

[Garf]

It not working is nonsense, because I have used it .

I don't think folks are questioning the ability to dose in one shot, it's the claimed benefit of increased coral health over other methods that I question.

 

[Mo.]

That's interesting. Thought it would behave similar to baking soda. Expected at least a small bump. Lots I still have to learn about formate. In the end, bulk of my pH rise will come from Fuge and/or ATS. Perhaps use potassium hydroxide should potassium be lagging. Kalk and it's limitations. This can become a science project :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

The problem is if you try and extrapolate without knowing what the bolus system is, then you will get into trouble..

This illustrates my point. It’s far easier just to watch one of the streams. You will gain far more from that and you will at least see where I’m coming from.

All I did was buy some corals from Doug. Spoke to him about his theory a few times and eventually tried it. I switched back and forth from kalk twice and watched a few streams about bolus dosing and came here
When I found the thread. I have been lurking for a while.

If and when you do the same, you will see why I’ve asked these questions in this thread. That’s all. I just came to learn.
.

PS Please do not bolus dose hydroxides. It will wipe your tank out.

 

[Mo.]

I don't think folks are questioning the ability to dose in one shot, it's the claimed benefit of increased coral health over other methods that I question.

I don’t think it’s over other methods.
It’s as well as other methods.

The only thing I was sceptical about was the precipitation of traces with Kalkwasser. I’m not wise enough to know if that definitely happens.

Claude has suggested it does.
I would be interested to hear other pro’s opinions as well.

What I do know is that balling salts are cleaner and have less precipitation of calcium carbonate than Kalkwasser.

Kalkwasser is far cheaper though and seems to work and Chris Meckley loves it.

I have had good experiences with both.
The halogen dosing idea with balling- I like that. I have been doing Moonshiners and so bolus halogen dosing makes sense from that point of view.

Ultimately I was hoping to have seen lots of you had tried it and sharing experiences, but sadly that hasn’t happened here.

Mo

Ps I was just as sceptical about Chris Meckley’s pH claims with kalk, but seeing Ryan Cunnigham’s reef made me try it and that works a treat too.

I saw much better polyp extension that’s for sure.

I have seen even more since using bolus, but that could still be the delayed kalk effect as I have switched both ways a couple of times. Due to equipment issues.

There are more ways that one to run a successful reef tank….

 

[GARRIGA]

The problem is if you try and extrapolate without knowing what the bolus system is, then you will get into trouble..

This illustrates my point. It’s far easier just to watch one of the streams. You will gain far more from that and you will at least see where I’m coming from.

All I did was buy some corals from Doug. Spoke to him about his theory a few times and eventually tried it. I switched back and forth from kalk twice and watched a few streams about bolus dosing and came here
When I found the thread. I have been lurking for a while.

If and when you do the same, you will see why I’ve asked these questions in this thread. That’s all. I just came to learn.
.

PS Please do not bolus dose hydroxides. It will wipe your tank out.

Saw the video. Actually posted a thread with it. Just wasn't for me yet gleaned some knowledge which took me in a different direction as I seek simplicity and safeguards against mishaps as I'm sure on my own will have plenty.

Concept of going back to manual dosing is intriguing except when on vacation yet those are short and a day or two missed likely not catastrophic. Yet dosing pumps failing are a real possibility and likely less to fail were they used infrequently. Big believer in all mechanical contraptions have an expected life and that which is part of life support best changed often or used less.

Assuming alkalinity goes unconsumed when lights off excluding nitrification then as to when dosed before lights on but after lights off becomes possibly irrelevant. Guess I'm not following the science on why exactly some 30 or 45 minutes before if I recall correctly.

Ignoring the pH boost, formate dumped once during lights out might have two benefits. Based on it requiring bacteria to break it down means more available at start of photosynthesis or second assumed hypothesis that corals take it directly and more will be available first light.

Understand I rarely follow vendor systems where only their unique recipe works. Red Sea for example, Gotta use mine not a selling point with me but I'll try to grasp most being said and seek value in approach. Although perhaps this as presented seems more complicated then is and I just need more time digesting it. Completely ignoring halogen and peptides. Besides going over my head way more in the weeds then my brain cares about.

Putting aside the strict approach described by FM and followed by self, do you see benefit in dumping formate lights off letting bacteria break it down into available alkalinity as a means to front load that process first light?

Seeking advancement in knowledge and not adherence to one vendor's approach requiring their recipe regardless if it's all it can be because vendors come and go and so do recipes yet fundamentals don't and formate available on it's own and was before TM marketed it.

Final point: the term bolus infers to dose once. Correct? It's not unique to what FM is selling.

 

[areefer01]

What has AFR got to do with bolus?

Nothing. If you read my replay you would have noticed the quote I replied to. Which was talking about AFR and ph.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Don't follow- you need to bolus dose something to get a spike. If you don’t bolus dose, you get a gradual increase?
If you have a higher Alk, it still won’t spike suddenly. Unless you bolus dose something. If you bolus dose a hydroxide, you get a much larger spike, but also large amounts of precipitation?


It depends on your definition of stable alk, but who is going to measure alk 24 times in the day? That might be the reason you haven’t seen it posted rather than it doesn’t happen?!

My alk fluctuation when measured twice a day was less than 0.5dkh. I used to have a 1dkh swing on my last tank when doing balling light and also when using the dastaco. But I also get a fairly stable Alk reading when dosing saturated Kalkwasser. Chris Meckley speaks about stable Alk with kalk dosing all the time,

Of course pH will not spike suddenly with slower dosing (except the photosynthesis part).

if you maintain alk at the top of the bolus spike level, the pH will be at least as higher or higher at every minute of the 24 h period. One could do that alk maintenance and higher pH with any alk product, except perhaps Salifert All in One.

Lots of people measure alk many times a day with controllers. In any case, if no one ever tests their alk after dosing, and compares it to any other dosing method, then no one verifies the FM claim of more stable alk.

 

[Mo.]

I'm a bit confused. In the post below you said you switched back to kalkwasser (post #535).

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bolus-dosing.1055204/post-12669923

Yes.

I knew if I spoke up on this thread, I would get accused of being on the payroll.

In fact I started the tank on Kalkwasser.

When I spoke with Doug about his theory months ago, I got the big to try
It. I did and it worked.

I had a few equipment issues and kalk dosing at the amounts I was dosing looked after everything including my evaporation. Needs via the Chris Meckley method.

I swapped back to bolus for a while- had another issue with my auto top up ( it randomly locks on!!) so I have switched back to kalk until I sort out the equipment issue.

I will then likely push bolus for the longer term. Because despite the negative publicity, it worked nicely in my tank.

Ph with kalk was 8.3-8.5. With bolus it was a little lower 8.15-8.35 which is still good.

Trace levels were easier to control with balling and it was less messy. I personally quite liked it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Nonsense!

The bolus pH spike doesn’t occur when I dose kalk all day.

The spike does occur when I dose a bolus of alK solution. This arises even if I don’t switch the lights on, but the photosynthetic boost to pH occurs additionally. And slightly later.

Thats my observation from my own system. Using kalk and using bolus at different times.




Then I guess you will always smell a rat.

Regardless of the reasoning, it works in my system.

I was hoping somebody here would explain it, but it doesn’t seem there is an appetite To explore that even remote
Possibility. Just to debunk as nonsense.

Of course it doesn’t. But the pH spike will NEVER get higher than the pH attained in the identical system with spread out alk dosing, no matter when or how it is done.

 

[Mo.]

Not saying to use Kalk for Bolus. Just the fact Bolus based on one dose which was something I recall all I spoke with which likely back then successful because none I knew had a thriving hard coral dominated reef tank therefore likely small dosages and do agree with you today wouldn’t work but something like Formate which is literally slow release would or using a low pH driving alkalinity. My understanding.

Formate does raise the possibility that those seeking this application might work as it’s assumed most ch might be taken up directly by coral and why most see low alkalinity. Would be an interesting study.

Personally not sure formate would work in the same way as it needs to be metabolised to release the alk and calcium, so is slower. But a bolus release of calcium is probably not tolerated so well by corals……

The bolus system advocates only alk bolus dosing so is slightly different from that point of view….

 

[Mo.]

Of course it doesn’t. But the pH spike will NEVER get higher than the pH attained in the identical system with spread out alk dosing, no matter when or how it is done.

That wasn’t my observation: the pH levels slowly rise over the course of a couple of weeks and was higher than when I did standard balling light - Not sure why…

 

[Mo.]

That wasn’t my observation: the pH levels slowly rise over the course of a couple of weeks and was higher than when I did standard balling light - Not sure why…

 

[Mo.]

Of course it doesn’t. But the pH spike will NEVER get higher than the pH attained in the identical system with spread out alk dosing, no matter when or how it is done.

You mean the initial
Spike vs the peak after the photo period?

Yes- agree. As you have the photosynthetic addition.

But the overall peak with the bolus system is higher than the overall peak when doing standard 2or 3 part.

As seen in the screenshot.

I had switched to bolus a few days before the first peak in the screenshot and it gradually rises like that each time I have done it.

Kalk gives a higher peak though, based on the amount of Kalk dosed of course…

 

[Mo.]

That's interesting. Thought it would behave similar to baking soda. Expected at least a small bump. Lots I still have to learn about formate. In the end, bulk of my pH rise will come from Fuge and/or ATS. Perhaps use potassium hydroxide should potassium be lagging. Kalk and it's limitations. This can become a science project :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

What limitations do you find with kalk?

 

[GARRIGA]

Personally not sure formate would work in the same way as it needs to be metabolised to release the alk and calcium, so is slower. But a bolus release of calcium is probably not tolerated so well by corals……

The bolus system advocates only alk bolus dosing so is slightly different from that point of view….

Key here being that formate is either fully metabolized before photosynthesis begins by dosing soon after lights out allowing the entire night to biologically break down or corals take it directly as seems to be current anecdotal thinking. If focus being on having maximum day's alkalinity at first light then do we really need to get beyond that with what ever unique properties FM supplies. Meaning isn't the availability of alkalinity the most important aspect of their approach?

Sort of like the skimmer being key in the Berlin Method and not necessarily the live rock as other media could be used to solve nutrients.

 

[GARRIGA]

What limitations do you find with kalk?

Potency and catastrophic tank failure should it be over dosed

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It not working is nonsense, because I have used it .

I’m happy to answer any questions about my system, but this thread is about bolus and why it works or why it doesn’t.

When you say it works, what does that mean, and what was it compared to?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That wasn’t my observation: the pH levels slowly rise over the course of a couple of weeks and was higher than when I did standard balling light - Not sure why…

Perhaps it contains some carbonate.

 

[Mo.]

Saw the video. Actually posted a thread with it. Just wasn't for me yet gleaned some knowledge which took me in a different direction as I seek simplicity and safeguards against mishaps as I'm sure on my own will have plenty.

Concept of going back to manual dosing is intriguing except when on vacation yet those are short and a day or two missed likely not catastrophic. Yet dosing pumps failing are a real possibility and likely less to fail were they used infrequently. Big believer in all mechanical contraptions have an expected life and that which is part of life support best changed often or used less.

Assuming alkalinity goes unconsumed when lights off excluding nitrification then as to when dosed before lights on but after lights off becomes possibly irrelevant. Guess I'm not following the science on why exactly some 30 or 45 minutes before if I recall correctly.

Ignoring the pH boost, formate dumped once during lights out might have two benefits. Based on it requiring bacteria to break it down means more available at start of photosynthesis or second assumed hypothesis that corals take it directly and more will be available first light.

Understand I rarely follow vendor systems where only their unique recipe works. Red Sea for example, Gotta use mine not a selling point with me but I'll try to grasp most being said and seek value in approach. Although perhaps this as presented seems more complicated then is and I just need more time digesting it. Completely ignoring halogen and peptides. Besides going over my head way more in the weeds then my brain cares about.

Putting aside the strict approach described by FM and followed by self, do you see benefit in dumping formate lights off letting bacteria break it down into available alkalinity as a means to front load that process first light?

Seeking advancement in knowledge and not adherence to one vendor's approach requiring their recipe regardless if it's all it can be because vendors come and go and so do recipes yet fundamentals don't and formate available on it's own and was before TM marketed it.

Final point: the term bolus infers to dose once. Correct? It's not unique to what FM is selling.

Not sure about formate. I haven’t used it.

I think we differ in that if somebody has done the ground work and users try it and it works, I’d rather go for that system rather than experiment further.

Reason: I spend far more for my corals than the methodology supporting them, so I don’t skimp on the system. I’d rather have fewer designer corals and better support system.

I would also use vendors said versions as a starting point, because with experience, all successful Systems eventually get nuanced and even copied. Until then use what’s tried and tested.

Keeping sps is difficult enough as it is.

Kalkwasser- well I need to know about the precipitation of traces. If and why that happens. Does it happen in other instances. Is it an issue?

For now, I like kalk and I like bolus alk dosing.

You know I bought the biggest delltec Calcium reactor, certain that I would be using it and it’s still brand new unused in my sump room. Next to the Kalkwasser tank!