Breaker tripping

[gbroadbridge]

Run an extension cord from a GFCI on a known good circuit; if the gfci or breaker trips at well under 15A load, the equipment is suspicious!

^^^^^. This is the best way to diagnose whether it is the tank equipment or the house wiring/breaker

 

[Miami Reef]

Hey guys!

I paid for urgent service with an excellent new electrician company. He found the problems and he will fix them tomorrow.

We are going to make it. We will be okay.

It’s a bit of a mess with all the cables in a different outlet, but he found the culprit.

 

[Miami Reef]

These are the GFCI outlets. They are in the sump and it’s impossible to work on them without taking out the sump and redoing the plumbing.

I can either do that or just add new outlets on top where the lights are connected to.


Basically, the breaker panel had 3 different wiring in one switch (I’m totally butchering the explanation, he’s sending the full report soon)

All the GFCI below the tank are interconnected which makes them basically wired into each other = bad job.

The breaker panel is super old as well. We will be fixing these issues.

Again, my explanations are absolute crud. I’ll post the full explanations once I get the email.

 

[BeanAnimal]

These are the GFCI outlets. They are in the sump and it’s impossible to work on them without taking out the sump and redoing the plumbing.

I can either do that or just add new outlets on top where the lights are connected to.


Basically, the breaker panel had 3 different wiring in one switch (I’m totally butchering the explanation, he’s sending the full report soon)

All the GFCI below the tank are interconnected which makes them basically wired into each other = bad job.

The breaker panel is super old as well. We will be fixing these issues.

Again, my explanations are absolute crud. I’ll post the full explanations once I get the email.

Glad you have somebody qualified on hand and he is going to get you sorted out!

 

[Miami Reef]

Here’s his report:

After my Inspection I notice that the circuits are not independent and they only griping went the 2 circuits are working, the circuits have GFCI concrete serial and these is part of the problem too.

The 2 circuits are in deferents lines and these generate the tripping because in some point of the wiring the 2 lines touch each other.

I replace one circuit and now the 2 circuits are in the same line and know they don’t trip but they have voltage problems.


Part of the problem is the breakers are to old and lose and the final solution is run 2 new circuits because the outlets are Behind the tank piping and not accessible.

 

[Reefering1]

Creative, but not really applicable. Any competent electrician would start by checking voltages at the panel and receptacles. Line-to-line, line-to-neutral, neutral-to-ground, etc.

Depending on what they find, they would also check at the meter socket or in some cases as far upstream as the bugs (connectors) on the service drop. Depending on AHJ that may or may not be the utilities responsibility.

Thermal imaging might find a hot spot but it's not a primary diagnostic tool for residential single phase systems. In fact, I would not trust a general electrician that took one out of the toolbox before a meter.

But, the OP has no electrical background. They should not be probing receptacles, rewiring outlets, or pulling panel covers based on advice from a forum. It is a quick way to win a Darwin Award.

This needs an in person evaluation by a licensed electrician :)

Fair enough(100% correct). But I said,

the only way for op to figure this out safely

.
Someone who is familiar with handling electricity would likely address it differently.
And note that I said, "figure this out", not "fix". Any way you slice it, as you said, op shouldn't be touching any of it. At best, my recommendation would be to "run a extension cord"... until the electrician gets there...

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

So only voltage issues on that circuit? The others in the house were fine?

Also does this mean he’s going to disconnect the circuit those outlets are on at the panel? And run new wire?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Lol - he explained it to you, and you to us, better than he wrote it.

I understand what he is trying to say, but it is a good thing he is a sparky and not a technical writing instructor

 

[Nor'easter Reefer]

Too bad your not anywhere near me, I'd take frags as tender

 

[IceNein]

It is common for there to be multiple outlets on one breaker. Most houses are like this. Code specifies that each room is fed from two different breakers, so if you have four outlets in a room, two or three might be on one breaker, and one or two might be on another. I don't know if GFCI outlets are required to be on a separate breaker. I don't know why they would be since the purpose of the GFCI is to shut off power to that outlet.

 

[BeanAnimal]

so only voltage issues on that circuit? The others in the house were fine?

It sounds like two branch circuits were improperly interconnected. That can cause strange and dangerous behavior -- ike voltage fluctuations, tripping from shared neutrals on opposite legs, or overloaded conductors. It sounds like the electrical system is a mess.

The breakers did what they were supposed to do, but miswired circuits like this can be lethal. If two circuits share a neutral incorrectly, and the load imbalance exceeds the wire’s capacity, you can have sustained overheating without ever tripping a breaker.

There are (or used to be?) example photos of neutral imbalance overheating somewhere on my site.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

It sounds like two branch circuits were improperly interconnected. That can cause strange and dangerous behavior -- ike voltage fluctuations, tripping from shared neutrals on opposite legs, or overloaded conductors. It sounds like the electrical system is a mess.

The breakers did what they were supposed to do, but miswired circuits like this can be lethal. If two circuits share a neutral incorrectly, and the load imbalance exceeds the wire’s capacity, you can have sustained overheating without ever tripping a breaker.

Now we know why the guy who likely installed it, aka electrician who wanted nothing to do with it, got outta there so quick.

Guy knew he messed it up. I wonder how many years ago his business insurance expired.

 

[Miami Reef]

Now we know why the guy who likely installed it, aka electrician who wanted nothing to do with it, got outta there so quick.

Guy knew he messed it up. I wonder how many years ago his business insurance expired.

The electrician we currently had didn’t install this. He’s just the guy we called for whenever we needed help.

He did give good advice: he didn’t want to branch another GFCI from those. He also couldn’t work under the tank as it’s too tight.


But he isn’t reliable. He only comes late after he finishes work. Our job is a second thought and almost like an inconvenience to him more than anything.

I paid him 3 weeks ago for coming and flipping the breaker back on. Instead of trying to fix these issues root problem he just flipped a switch and wanted to wait for the problem to happen again. Dumb.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is common for there to be multiple outlets on one breaker. Most houses are like this. Code specifies that each room is fed from two different breakers, so if you have four outlets in a room, two or three might be on one breaker, and one or two might be on another. I don't know if GFCI outlets are required to be on a separate breaker. I don't know why they would be since the purpose of the GFCI is to shut off power to that outlet.

Yes, it is common for multiple receptacles to be on one breaker, but your code citations are not correct.

There are cases where two branch circuits may be required (kitchen counters for example) but it is not a universal requirement. Most rooms in a residential dwelling are not required to have multiple branch circuits, and in fact, multiple rooms may share a single branch circuit, based on load calculations. There are requirements in some cases for lighting circuits and they may or may not share utilization device receptacles, again depending on location. Some AHJs may add to NEC requirements.


GFCI receptacles are not required to be on isolated breakers.

I want to make something very clear here.

Standard circuit breakers and AFCI circuit breakers are not designed or sized to protect YOU or EQUIPMENT. They are designed to protect the wiring. Full Stop.

Device breakers (built into appliances for example) are to protect the appliance.

GFCIs are designed to protect YOU.

 

[jonelder68]

Here’s his report:

After my Inspection I notice that the circuits are not independent and they only griping went the 2 circuits are working, the circuits have GFCI concrete serial and these is part of the problem too.

The 2 circuits are in deferents lines and these generate the tripping because in some point of the wiring the 2 lines touch each other.

I replace one circuit and now the 2 circuits are in the same line and know they don’t trip but they have voltage problems.


Part of the problem is the breakers are to old and lose and the final solution is run 2 new circuits because the outlets are Behind the tank piping and not accessible.

Make sure and have him upgrade your new breakers to gfci and arc fault. Believe he will anyways as that’s code in my area at least.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Make sure and have him upgrade your new breakers to gfci and arc fault. Believe he will anyways as that’s code in my area at least.

I think most areas require it even if they’re still enforcing older NEC editions. AFCI has been in the code since around 2008 and has expanded with nearly every revision since.

GFCI requirements are pre 2000 for sure and expanded significantly since then, to almost universal by maybe 2018. I would bet most AHJs in Florida are already enforcing at least 2020, if not 2023.

Before anyone asks...

Yes, I read the NEC to keep up to date with each code revision and what is new, and yes, I read the NFPA ratification documents and the arguments for and against each revision. I actually find the justifications and debates oddly fascinating. Sadly, most of that technical back and forth is now paywalled.

 

[jonelder68]

I think most areas require it even if they’re still enforcing older NEC editions. AFCI has been in the code since around 2008 and has expanded with nearly every revision since.

GFCI requirements are pre 2000 for sure and expanded significantly since then, to almost universal by maybe 2018. I would bet most AHJs in Florida are already enforcing at least 2020, if not 2023.

Ya but depends if this guy plans on pulling permits etc and doing it correctly. Why I suggest asking this. If not red flag immediately.

 

[Miami Reef]

Make sure and have him upgrade your new breakers to gfci and arc fault. Believe he will anyways as that’s code in my area at least.

Here are the photos he took of our panels

Can you tell me what I should ask them to do? I’m a little bit confused. Anyway, the supervisor is coming tomorrow and we will discuss exactly what needs to be done. The more info I have to tell them what to do, the better.

 

[jonelder68]

Here are the photos he took of our panels

Can you tell me what I should ask them to do? I’m a little bit confused. Anyway, the supervisor is coming tomorrow and we will discuss exactly what needs to be done. The more info I have to tell them what to do, the better.

Is your panel outside!?!? Man that’s a lot of rust/galvanic corrosion

 

[Miami Reef]

Is your panel outside!?!? Man that’s a lot of rust/galvanic corrosion

It’s in the garage. Not outside.

Very old system.