BRS 2-part vs. ESV B-ionic

[Reefahholic]

Well I was curious, so I took a look at BRS magnesium.
The website doesn't actually say what the concentration of their product is, but you can figure it out with their calculator.
If you mix the BRS mag as directed ('liquid magnesium mix'), the resultant concentration of magnesium is 46,980 ppm.
BRS mag is more concentrated than the ESV magnesium which is 36,000 ppm.
So for magnesium only, to dose the same amount, you would use 131% as much ESV as you've been using with the BRS mix.

Thanks for doing that research! Appreciate the strong work.

I don’t know if this is true, but I heard that magnesium is more expensive than Cal and Alk which is why some salt companies try to skimp on the mag.

This may or may not be the case here, but I do find it odd that ESV makes the Cal and Alk 48% stronger than BRS, but yet Mag is significantly weaker than the other two components and even less potent than the BRS mag.

That’s really odd. I wonder why.?

 

[rc1626]

Thanks for doing that research! Appreciate the strong work.

I don’t know if this is true, but I heard that magnesium is more expensive than Cal and Alk which is why some salt companies try to skimp on the mag.

This may or may not be the case here, but I do find it odd that ESV makes the Cal and Alk 48% stronger than BRS, but yet Mag is significantly weaker than the other two components and even less potent than the BRS mag.

That’s really odd. I wonder why.?

It is my understanding that ESV 2 part contains magnesium. That could be a possible reason why their Mag is lower in concentration. It is supposed to be used as a supplement to their 2 part to maintain Mag levels. Just a thought.

 

[Reefahholic]

It is my understanding that ESV 2 part contains magnesium. That could be a possible reason why their Mag is lower in concentration. It is supposed to be used as a supplement to their 2 part to maintain Mag levels. Just a thought.

Hmm, interesting. Now the question becomes how much mag is in the first two bottles?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmm, interesting. Now the question becomes how much mag is in the first two bottles?

There is some uncertainty how much they put in, but not a huge uncertainty f you accept their statements on how the product is designed (leaving a natural seawater ratio after precipitation of calcium carbonate). The ratio will be something close to the ratio in my DIY:

In my DIY, each gallon provides 141 grams of calcium. The recommended amount of magnesium product to be added is about 28.5 grams. So about a 0.2 to 1 magnesium to calcium ratio.

The uncertainty comes in how much magnesium they assume gets incorporated into the "precipitated" calcium carbonate. Maybe none, or maybe something close to the amount I used.

i discuss how the magnesium amount of determined here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

from it:

Residual Ions from the Calcium and Alkalinity Parts

Adding 1 gallon of each of these additives will result in a residue of ions remaining after calcification. These are mostly sodium and chloride, and the amounts of those two added are equal in numbers (i.e., moles), but slightly different in weight-based concentrations such as ppm because they do not weigh the same.

After adding 594 grams of baking soda (1 gallon of Recipe #1), we will have added 163 grams of sodium. In natural seawater, magnesium is present at about 12.0% of the sodium concentration (by weight). In order to match the magnesium additions to the sodium additions to leave them in a natural ratio, we need to add 12% of 163 grams, or 19.5 grams, of magnesium for every gallon of the two-part additive that we add.

Additionally, we may want to account for magnesium that is actually incorporated into the coral skeletons. For this calculation, I have assumed that the amount of magnesium incorporated is about 6.5% of the calcium level (by weight), or about 2.5% of the skeleton by weight. In the course of adding this gallon of both parts of the two part supplement, we added 141 grams of calcium, so we need to add 0.065 x 141 = 9 grams of magnesium to account for this deposition.

The magnesium parts of the recipe are designed to add enough magnesium so that it is not depleted by either of the two means described above. Because the magnesium supplement (either version) is 47,000 mg/L in magnesium, we need to add (9 +19.5) grams/47 g/L = 610 ml of the magnesium solution for each gallon of the other parts of Recipe #1.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for doing that research! Appreciate the strong work.

I don’t know if this is true, but I heard that magnesium is more expensive than Cal and Alk which is why some salt companies try to skimp on the mag.

This may or may not be the case here, but I do find it odd that ESV makes the Cal and Alk 48% stronger than BRS, but yet Mag is significantly weaker than the other two components and even less potent than the BRS mag.

That’s really odd. I wonder why.?

I don't think anyone is skimping on magnesium. Do you know of any salt mix with less than about 1280 ppm magnesium at 35 ppt? That's the natural level.

The ESV magnesium IS NOT intended to be used regularly with the ESV B-ionic (although you could if you needed to). The B-ionic already has magnesium in it. My recipe (BRS) does not, and needs a third part.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You know...I didn’t think to even ask, but I’m assuming that all the supplements are 47-48% more potent. Not just the Alkalinity component right.????

Can anybody confirm for sure that all the bottles...ALK, CAL, & MAG have the same potency?

One last question. The sticker for the Calcium came off the bottle. Do you fill that bottle up to where you would on the ALK bottle to the sticker?

The ESV magnesium is not, as described above, a similar product to the magnesium part of my supplement system. Do not use it the same way.

The alk and calcium of both my recipe and ESV are designed for 1:1 use and so are equally different in potency.

 

[rkpetersen]

Because the magnesium supplement (either version) is 47,000 mg/L in magnesium

You know, I thought about rounding up when I gave the calculated concentration of 46,980. Too close to 47,000 to be a coincidence! :)

The ESV magnesium IS NOT intended to be used regularly with the ESV B-ionic (although you could if you needed to).

Indeed.
Your point that BRS mag and ESV mag aren't directly comparable products is one that I should have considered.
ESV 2-part already contains some magnesium, BRS doesn't. BRS mag is necessary, ESV mag is a supplement.
I do use ESV mag in relatively small amounts to supplement the 2-part, because testing shows that the level drops if I don't supplement.
I just dose mag as indicated by test; I have spent no time wrestling with the stoichiometry for this one.
Montis, in particular, really seem to soak up mag as they grow.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You know, I thought about rounding up when I gave the calculated concentration of 46,980. Too close to 47,000 to be a coincidence! :)



Indeed.
I use it in small amounts to supplement the 2-part, because testing shows that the level drops if I don't supplement.
Montis, in particular, really seem to soak up mag as they grow.

And that's the rub with magnesium. Different organisms incorporate different amounts when they deposit calcium carbonate. Coralline algae is amount of biggest users, as they can deposit a high magnesium calcite instead of aragonite.

Table 1. Magnesium in calcium carbonate skeletons

Organisms Magnesium content of skeleton (weight %)

Corals
Suborder Asterocoeniina and Faviina 0.07 - 0.36%

Suborder Fungina 0.095-1.22%

Fungia actiniformis var. palawensis 0.091%

Suborder Caryophylliina 0.18-0.21%

Suborder Milleporina 0.12-0.53%

Millepora sp. 0.12-0.53%

Suborder Stolonifera 2.98-3.52%

Family Tubiporidae 2.98-3.52%

Tubipora rubrum 2.98-3.52%

Family Dendrophylliidae 0.05%

Family Porites 0.095-1.22%

Porites lobata 0.40-1.22%

Family Pocillopora 0.34%

Family Dendrophyllia 0.05%

Gorgonia
Eunicella papillosa, E. alba, E. tricoronata, and Lophogorgia flamea 2.2-2.7%

Other Organisms

Coralline Algae in general >1%

Coralline algae: Lithophyllum and Lithotamnium 2.0-2.8%

Calcareous alga Corallina pilulifera 4.4%

benthic marine Ostracoda (crustaceans) 0.5-1.3%

 

[rkpetersen]

Wow, look at those numbers for coralline algae. I have a good bit of that too. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, it's a big user!

 

[Reefahholic]

I don't think anyone is skimping on magnesium. Do you know of any salt mix with less than about 1280 ppm magnesium at 35 ppt? That's the natural level.

The ESV magnesium IS NOT intended to be used regularly with the ESV B-ionic (although you could if you needed to). The B-ionic already has magnesium in it. My recipe (BRS) does not, and needs a third part.

Yeah, you’re right. I keep my Mag high like 1400-1440 so I find myself supplementing a lot during or right after a water change. NSW for mag just seems low for some reason. A lot of reefers now running higher mag including WWC @ 1440.

 

[Reefahholic]

That’s awesome! Very interesting.

And that's the rub with magnesium. Different organisms incorporate different amounts when they deposit calcium carbonate. Coralline algae is amount of biggest users, as they can deposit a high magnesium calcite instead of aragonite.

Table 1. Magnesium in calcium carbonate skeletons

Organisms Magnesium content of skeleton (weight %)

Corals
Suborder Asterocoeniina and Faviina 0.07 - 0.36%

Suborder Fungina 0.095-1.22%

Fungia actiniformis var. palawensis 0.091%

Suborder Caryophylliina 0.18-0.21%

Suborder Milleporina 0.12-0.53%

Millepora sp. 0.12-0.53%

Suborder Stolonifera 2.98-3.52%

Family Tubiporidae 2.98-3.52%

Tubipora rubrum 2.98-3.52%

Family Dendrophylliidae 0.05%

Family Porites 0.095-1.22%

Porites lobata 0.40-1.22%

Family Pocillopora 0.34%

Family Dendrophyllia 0.05%

Gorgonia
Eunicella papillosa, E. alba, E. tricoronata, and Lophogorgia flamea 2.2-2.7%

Other Organisms

Coralline Algae in general >1%

Coralline algae: Lithophyllum and Lithotamnium 2.0-2.8%

Calcareous alga Corallina pilulifera 4.4%

benthic marine Ostracoda (crustaceans) 0.5-1.3%

 

[Reefahholic]

Wow, look at those numbers for coralline algae. I have a good bit of that too. :)

I hear big clams suck down Calcium like crazy. Don’t know if this is true.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes, it's a big user!

Yes it is. You’d think I’d have it everywhere with my high mag levels, but it only dominated my rocks. Won’t touch the glass or overflow yet. Tank is young though so it may in the future.

 

[Reefahholic]

I emailed ESV to ask how much potency is in each jug. We already have the answer for Alk. I’ll report back soon if they respond.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I emailed ESV to ask how much potency is in each jug. We already have the answer for Alk. I’ll report back soon if they respond.

FWIW, I doubt they will tell you how much of any ions are in B-ionic except calcium and alkalinity.

 

[Reefahholic]

FWIW, I doubt they will tell you how much of any ions are in B-ionic except calcium and alkalinity.

@Randy Holmes-Farley you we’re exactly right. I was honestly only after the Alk and Cal though and I got them.

So I emailed ESV and talked to Mr. Bob Stark. Dang good people BTW! ESV is about 48% more potent than BRS 2-Part. I did confirm that the alkalinity component is 2800 meq/Liter (7840 dKH).

Also confirmed that the the calcium component is 62,752 mg/L and the magnesium in the two part is in the calcium component, and it's concentration is proprietary. To me this isn’t a big deal, because when you test the numbers will let you know the concentration. The Alk and Cal were the components I was after!

They also sell a separate B-Ionic Magnesium supplement only to be used as needed. The concentration of that product is 36,000 ppm magnesium. So I’ll assume that the magnesium in the Calcium component will test very close to NSW.

I have all three components so If I need to supplement a little more mag I’m good.

 

[reefteaser]

Just chiming in here as I’ve been using ESV 2 part for about two years now on my 115 gal mixed reef. I bought a gallon of Mg when I started, figuring I’d use it after my current magnesium was used up. I only recently opened it to fill my Mg reservoir as I only need to dose 12 ml a week to maintain Mg at 1300-1350. I’ll probably replace it with a coral food or other nutrition and just toss in the Mg by hand.
I started using ESV on a smaller (30 gal) mixed reef and don’t need to add magnesium at all. I do a 25% water change once a month on both tanks. Numbers on both tanks are very stable, growth and colors are good.
I’ve been using the gallon jugs for a while. Adding the RODI water, shaking and just letting it sit in a closet. Alk is usually dissolved in 1-3 days. I’m thinking of trying the larger containers and just set the Alk outside in the shade for a while. The south Florida heat should take care of things.
Real happy with this product.