BRS Hybrid Balling Method?

[rtparty]

So how do you know how much of K & A element to use and you do weekly water changes I am dosing kalwasser now and 2 part

Because of how much coral and growth I had, I went with the 330ml per gallon that TM instructs. I also dosed 3000ml a day of kalkwasser to this system.

My trace element belief is: some is better than none, less is better than more.

 

[Tuffloud1]

So are you still running the BRS/Tropic Marine Balling Method?

Absolutely. After 20 years there are very few constants in this hobby but one of them is water changes produce results. It’s cheap insurance that solves so many issues before they ever happen. How does RM solve issues when they arise? Water changes. Get some elements way too high? Water change.

You won’t save any money on RM compared to weekly 7-10% water changes. My tank actually looked way better once I quit the RM method and went back to what works. I ran RM for 3 years on 2 different tanks. Was part of the RM group and asked Andre hundreds of questions. Way too much guessing with little scientific fact to back it up.

 

[rtparty]

So are you still running the BRS/Tropic Marine Balling Method?

I tore my tank down about 3 months ago and have been tankless since. Shortly before tear down I sent off an ICP to ATI and the results were great. Couple trace elements were lowish but of no concern

 

[Tuffloud1]

I tore my tank down about 3 months ago and have been tankless since. Shortly before tear down I sent off an ICP to ATI and the results were great. Couple trace elements were lowish but of no concern

Was it iodine and manganese that were low?

 

[rtparty]

Was it iodine and manganese that were low?

There are multiple trace elements that will show low or undetectable 99% of the time. Iodine, manganese, and iron are the 3 that seem to have actual use. I dosed them individually 4-5x a week. I never shot for a number with them

 

[Tuffloud1]

There are multiple trace elements that will show low or undetectable 99% of the time. Iodine, manganese, and iron are the 3 that seem to have actual use. I dosed them individually 4-5x a week. I never shot for a number with them

You dosed them individually while also running the balling method? Or are you referring to when you were doing the RM method?

 

[rtparty]

You dosed them individually while also running the balling method? Or are you referring to when you were doing the RM method?

I dosed them individually along with the balling method. Like 4-5x a week I’d add some drops from my blue bottles from the RM days. Sometimes I would forget for a week or two even.

In the end, I never saw anything I could attribute to dosing and not dosing them. Nothing was better or worse if that makes sense

 

[Tuffloud1]

I dosed them individually along with the balling method. Like 4-5x a week I’d add some drops from my blue bottles from the RM days. Sometimes I would forget for a week or two even.

In the end, I never saw anything I could attribute to dosing and not dosing them. Nothing was better or worse if that makes sense

Would you say there is a benefit to the balling method? I’ve been running @Randy Holmes-Farley ‘s 2 part and 1% automatic water changes daily with regular Instant Ocean salt, protein skimmer and filter socks for the last few years. Pretty happy with the results so I’m trying to determine if adding the balling method would help in any way with coloration, polyp etc of my acropora.

 

[rtparty]

Would you say there is a benefit to the balling method? I’ve been running @Randy Holmes-Farley ‘s 2 part and 1% automatic water changes daily with regular Instant Ocean salt, protein skimmer and filter socks for the last few years. Pretty happy with the results so I’m trying to determine if adding the balling method would help in any way with coloration, polyp etc of my acropora.

Looks pretty darn good to me! :star-struck:

Not sure if you have watched Ryan Batcheller's last couple talks from RAP but he makes some really solid points about the 80/20 rule and reefing. You are in that territory of likely trying to eek out the "last 5%" if that makes sense.

The balling method made a lot of sense to me and was easy enough to implement since I planned it from day one of my old tank. 3 dosing pumps and you're set. You can always add Tropic Marin A and K Elements to your 2 part and see if you notice any changes. You add A to alkalinity and K to calcium. You can skip Part C to start especially with 1% AWC. Part C is there to help with ionic balance from rising salinity from the 2 part.

 

[Tuffloud1]

Looks pretty darn good to me! :star-struck:

Not sure if you have watched Ryan Batcheller's last couple talks from RAP but he makes some really solid points about the 80/20 rule and reefing. You are in that territory of likely trying to eek out the "last 5%" if that makes sense.

The balling method made a lot of sense to me and was easy enough to implement since I planned it from day one of my old tank. 3 dosing pumps and you're set. You can always add Tropic Marin A and K Elements to your 2 part and see if you notice any changes. You add A to alkalinity and K to calcium. You can skip Part C to start especially with 1% AWC. Part C is there to help with ionic balance from rising salinity from the 2 part.

Thank you! I’m trying to grasp the concept of how adding the part c which is salt water without the sodium chloride will actually keep the sodium chloride from rising from the 2 part? Won’t you still get an increase in salinity over time similar to sodium chloride increasing it from the 2 part alone? I guess you mitigate this with water changes but get the benefit of the ions being “balanced” from the part c? Let me know if my brain isn’t working properly.

 

[rtparty]

Thank you! I’m trying to grasp the concept of how adding the part c which is salt water without the sodium chloride will actually keep the sodium chloride from rising from the 2 part? Won’t you still get an increase in salinity over time similar to sodium chloride increasing it from the 2 part alone? I guess you mitigate this with water changes but get the benefit of the ions being “balanced” from the part c? Let me know if my brain isn’t working properly.

You got it. It isn't to stop the salinity rise but it helps keep everything in a better balance. Without the Part C you get excess sodium chloride but nothing else rises (except all the trace elements that get added from food but we can't control those.)

On my 250 I didn't see a salinity increase from 2 part dosing. My best guess is the skimmer was pulling out just enough while the ATO added RODI and this kept the salinity from rising.

To throw another wrench into my whole dosing system, I was adding 3000-3500ml of kalk daily. This kept salinity from rising plus helped with pH.

 

[Tuffloud1]

You got it. It isn't to stop the salinity rise but it helps keep everything in a better balance. Without the Part C you get excess sodium chloride but nothing else rises (except all the trace elements that get added from food but we can't control those.)

On my 250 I didn't see a salinity increase from 2 part dosing. My best guess is the skimmer was pulling out just enough while the ATO added RODI and this kept the salinity from rising.

To throw another wrench into my whole dosing system, I was adding 3000-3500ml of kalk daily. This kept salinity from rising plus helped with pH.

I’m dosing close to 300ml a day of soda ash and calcium chloride.

I have noted a slight increase in salinity over time which gets mitigated by water changes.

I’m curious what the consequence of a higher level sodium chloride would have on organisms. To my understanding, it is the calcium chloride part of the 2 part dosing more so than soda ash that raises the sodium chloride levels and is only a concern if you are dosing significant amounts. In my case close to 300ml a day I would guess is significant.

Maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley could help me with this question:

If I’m dosing 300ml each of soda ash and calcium per day along with water changes of 1% daily on a 300 gallon system, are the water changes enough to keep sodium chloride in balance or would I be best served to implement the balling method utilizing part c to keep the balance?

 

[Sweet Reef Corals Verified Sponsor]

I’m dosing close to 300ml a day of soda ash and calcium chloride.

I have noted a slight increase in salinity over time which gets mitigated by water changes.

I’m curious what the consequence of a higher level sodium chloride would have on organisms. To my understanding, it is the calcium chloride part of the 2 part dosing more so than soda ash that raises the sodium chloride levels and is only a concern if you are dosing significant amounts. In my case close to 300ml a day I would guess is significant.

Maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley could help me with this question:

If I’m dosing 300ml each of soda ash and calcium per day along with water changes of 1% daily on a 300 gallon system, are the water changes enough to keep sodium chloride in balance or would I be best served to implement the balling method utilizing part c to keep the balance?

It’s really about the balance between your sodium chloride and trace elements. What happens over time is your corals consume various trace elements. You are only replenishing Carbonate hardness (alk), Calcium and magnesium in the typical “2 part” dosing regimen. Over time your salinity will rise because of the excess chloride portion of the additives. Trace elements will remain the same or be deficient. So to correct the salinity issue you add more RODI water which is a typical adjustment. So now, your salinity is perfect but your alk, calc, Mag and lots of other trace elements are potentially deficient because you diluted the system with RODI water. At least in a typical mixed reef they would be. In an SPS dominant reef, you would likely have several elements at critically low levels if you are not dosing them. That is where we are with 1 SPS system now. I started the BRS Balling hybrid dosing to that system today. I have a few issues with the information that’s out there regarding the BRS hybrid balling method. I’ll post about that later….

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’m dosing close to 300ml a day of soda ash and calcium chloride.

I have noted a slight increase in salinity over time which gets mitigated by water changes.

I’m curious what the consequence of a higher level sodium chloride would have on organisms. To my understanding, it is the calcium chloride part of the 2 part dosing more so than soda ash that raises the sodium chloride levels and is only a concern if you are dosing significant amounts. In my case close to 300ml a day I would guess is significant.

Maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley could help me with this question:

If I’m dosing 300ml each of soda ash and calcium per day along with water changes of 1% daily on a 300 gallon system, are the water changes enough to keep sodium chloride in balance or would I be best served to implement the balling method utilizing part c to keep the balance?

Sorry, I missed this.

It’s never wrong or undesirable to use an appropriate amount of Balling Part C.

Both parts case similar deviations over time. It’s not really useful to point to just half.

Is it necessary in every case? No.

But exactly where something (say, potassium) deviates enough to be a problem is a lengthy calculation for every important element.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

have a few issues with the information that’s out there regarding the BRS hybrid balling method. I’ll post about that later….

I’m happy to try to address that, whatever the concern is.

 

[Sweet Reef Corals Verified Sponsor]

I’m happy to try to address that, whatever the concern is.

Well, in my research to determine whether I wanted to use the Triton, Reef Moonshiners or BRS Balling hybrid method I ran across a couple very confusing, badly written descriptions and or explanations about the BRS Balling Hybrid method.

It's pretty easy to understand that the Tropic Marin parts A and B are basically the same as the BRS Soda Ash (for alkalinity) and BRS Calcium Chloride "2 part dosing method". However, when trying to understand the Tropic Marin part C, well the explanations get very cloudy. This is the description straight from the BRS Balling hybrid product page for Tropic Marins trace element dosing. (https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/trac...=11280&indexName=brs_prod_m2_default_products)

"With regular dosing, Tropic Marin's Part C maintains the natural balance of mineral salts in the aquarium, perfectly complementing the sodium and chloride ions from sodium carbonate and calcium chloride."

Part C is constantly described as "chloride free reef salts". Yes, it may play a part in helping maintain the correct chloride levels in a system but that is not the MAIN function of Part C. This is extremely misleading and confusing. After going over it many times and looking up the actual ingredients to Part C, I finally realized that Part C is just basically the Magnesium supplement in a "2 part" dosing regimen with some Potassium added in. Why don't they just say that on the Tropic Marin site, and the BRS product site? Per Tropic Marin product website....
Part C: Sodium chloride free sea salt (~ 3,350 ppm Mg; ~ 980 ppm K)

It's a magnesium and potassium suppliment! lol Why make it so confusing??

That leads me to the next beef I had while researching this method. When you go to the BRS Balling Hybrid products from TM (https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/trac...=11280&indexName=brs_prod_m2_default_products), BRS does a fairly decent job explaining that you make your BRS Alkalinity mix and then add in the TM PRO TRACE A- element to the mix. Then mix up your BRS Calcium Chloride mix and then add in the TM PRO TRACE K- element to the mix. That was easy enough but then BRS explains how to mix up the BRS Magnesium portion of their "2 part dosing" method and then explains how to make a 1g mix of Tropic Marin part C. Never do they explain that part C actually replaces the BRS magnesium solution. The way it is laid out in the description makes it appear that you will need 4 individual dosing containers and 4 dosers to follow this method and that is simply not true. It took quite a while to figure this out and I am quite experienced in dosing 2 part+MG but never trace elements. It really shouldn't have been so confusing and they really shouldn't be promoting the magnesium solution as a "sodium chloride free reef salt"! lol. It would have made my research life much easier over these last several days.....

End of rant..... but I do hope this explanation helps the next guy or gal that is considering the BRS Balling hybrid method

 

[Discotu]

I'm on the hybrid baller method and also dose mg (4th container). @Sweet Reef Corals
If what you say is true I suspect I would see a rise in my mg levels but I dont. @Randy Holmes-Farley thoughts?

 

[Discotu]

I'm not a chemistry but this makes sense:

https://aquaforest.eu/en/knowledge-base/aquaforest/balling-method/how-does-reef-mineral-salt-work/

 

[Sweet Reef Corals Verified Sponsor]

I'm on the hybrid baller method and also dose mg (4th container). @Sweet Reef Corals
If what you say is true I suspect I would see a rise in my mg levels but I dont. @Randy Holmes-Farley thoughts?

It depends how much you’re dosing of part 3 (Mg) and part 4 (TM C)

 

[Sweet Reef Corals Verified Sponsor]

I'm not a chemistry but this makes sense:

https://aquaforest.eu/en/knowledge-base/aquaforest/balling-method/how-does-reef-mineral-salt-work/

Without reading the whole article and researching what makes up the AF Sodium Free Reef Salt, I can’t comment on the Aquaforest product/process. I am only referring to Tropic Marin and BRS method.

I do agree that dosing chloride free salt is a smart part of the balling method but the Tropic Marin version of part C also supplies Magnesium and Potassium. And that is what they should more clearly explain. You do not need to dose BRS magnesium if you are dosing Tropic Marin Part C as I read and understand it.

The straight balling method is part A, B and C. There is no additional magnesium supplement.