Buffering RO/DI?

[Anthony Calfo]

Yeah, Dan...the kalkwasser had nothing to do with your problem of high alk or rtn. All you are getting is free calcium and a hydroxl ion. There is zero contribution to alkalinity other than the caustic nature nuking some tank acids that eventually would pull down alkalinity. But your alkalinity increase did not happen magically. Point blank its from supplementation. Presuming you werent adding a buffer, and presuming you werent doing monster water changes with a staggeringly alk enriched sea salt (rare)...you got your high alk from somewhere else. A calcium reactor would be the logical guess here for starters.

We have seen rtn induced (akin in a way to acidosis in fishes) from chronically depressed pH. The pH on the most vigorous (calcifying) parts of the reef is pushing 8.6 (8.4 on the lowest end). Sure...reef building does occur in lower pH places; there's always exceptions and evolutionary adaptations. But if you want to talk about where the greatest number of species have the most productive reef building...8.6 baby

Its sellers of cheap sea buffer and lazy aquarists that want you to believe low pH is acceptable. But that still wont change the fact looking back that you had or will have trouble keeping quite a few corals alive in the long run. People dont want to hear it, but the science is what it is.

 

[VegasRick]

There is zero contribution to alkalinity other than the caustic nature nuking some tank acids that eventually would pull down alkalinity..

From RHF article at What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

The calcium ions in the solution obviously supply calcium to the aquarium, and the hydroxide ions supply alkalinity. Hydroxide itself provides alkalinity (both by definition and as measured with an alkalinity test), but corals consume alkalinity as bicarbonate, not hydroxide. Fortunately, when limewater is used in a reef aquarium, it quickly combines with atmospheric and dissolved carbon dioxide and bicarbonate to form bicarbonate and carbonate

 

[VegasRick]

We have seen rtn induced (akin in a way to acidosis in fishes) from chronically depressed pH. The pH on the most vigorous (calcifying) parts of the reef is pushing 8.6 (8.4 on the lowest end). Sure...reef building does occur in lower pH places; there's always exceptions and evolutionary adaptations. But if you want to talk about where the greatest number of species have the most productive reef building...8.6 baby

QUOTE]

Chronic low ph would no doubt cause problems, but pH in the range of 7.8-8.2 is not chronic by any means. And calling aquarists lazy because they keep it in these ranges in absurd. In fact I am curious where you are getting your data from. All that I have seen shows the majority of reefs having pH in the 7.8-8.4. Here is a paper that lists a dozen or so reefs with daily variabilities in that range. It also list a few with pH in the 8.8 range near Japan
http://www.pages-igbp.org/science/paloa/talks/Catalina_Carles_SN.pdf

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I have also seen Catalaphyllia...in Japan, as you cite...in 58F water. But that doesn't make it ideal or the species or other reef corals.

I've sampled reefs personally in Tonga, Fiji, Vanuatu, Australia, East Africa and Sri Lanka (Hawaii too...but not much reef development there). The healthy regions with the greatest diversity have remarkably strong and consistent pH.

Sure...the lagoons full of detritus, Fungia and Catalaphyllia are comparatively flatter (more acidic) in pH. But most reef aquarists are trying to replicate that. And it doesn't even mean that those niches are optimal for said coral.

We can't cite extremes and unique situations if we are going to have a helpful and meaningful discussion.

And Rick...would you please take a friendly tone? None of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean we should be brusque or combative. I'm referring to your reputation more than your posts here. I also am typing this with a straightforward and affable tone of voice intended. You'd do right to read it as such, please.

 

[skinz78]

Last night I buffered my first 5 gallon bucket of RO/DI water with the Kent per their instructions and I let it mix for an hour or so then checked the Alk in it. It came out at 3.4DKH. Then I added salt mix and brought the SG up to 1.026 and checked the Alk again and it came out at 11.2 Dkh. But when I added the bucket to my system the water clouded up pretty bad. I then checked my params in there and this is what I came up with:

Cal 430 ppm was 480 ppm on 2/4/11 and I have been dosing Kalk all along since then.
Alk 7.7 Dkh was 7.0 Dkh on 2/8/11 been struggling to keep it up with 2 part.
Mag 1260 ppm was 1350 ppm on 2/4/11

Did I add the bucket of new salt water too quickly and precipitate some of the Cal and Mag? I used a Maxi Jet 1200 with a hose to pump it into the sump.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Is you salt brand made for RO water or not, my friend? Some are. Some aren't. Those that are made (and state so on the bag) need only have demineralized/raw water aerated to raise the temporary pH usually.
Let's start there (with your salt choice).

The chemistry is all that matters. While the quality of our source water varies, and your salt choices vary (person to person or over time), it just needs to all be reckoned to meet your goal. Someone using Tropic Marin versus an economy salt yet with the same source water will end up with different results, of course, unless they test and finesse as needed.

Kindly, Anth-

 

[skinz78]

I am using Seachem Reef Salt, it doesn't say it is buffered or not.

 

[mdb_talon]

Chronic low ph would no doubt cause problems, but pH in the range of 7.8-8.2 is not chronic by any means. And calling aquarists lazy because they keep it in these ranges in absurd. In fact I am curious where you are getting your data from. All that I have seen shows the majority of reefs having pH in the 7.8-8.4. Here is a paper that lists a dozen or so reefs with daily variabilities in that range. It also list a few with pH in the 8.8 range near Japan
http://www.pages-igbp.org/science/paloa/talks/Catalina_Carles_SN.pdf

Ouch a little rough on this Anthony Calfo guy maybe he just dont have much experience in the hobby who knows where he getting his info from.....

On a serious note I am all for challenging the experts and most knowledgable people in our hobby; as I am sure Anthony would agree they dont know EVERYthing either. On the other hand if he is going to come here to post and share his tremendous knowledge I hope we could do it in a civil manner and appreciate that he is here sharing his wealth of knowledge with us.

Of course I cant be sure it is actually him, but based on reading the posts he has made I would think it is.

 

[skinz78]

LOL it is the real Anthony Calfo, believe that!

I have been buffering my water and I have noticed that my Alk is a lot more stable! I just checked it tonight and it is at 7.4DKH and hasn't been up and down like a yo yo.

 

[VegasRick]

You run your alk a little lower than I prefer, I keep mine close to 10. And IMO kw is better for top off as it tends to help keep the pH in the system higher.

As for being rough on Calfo....well I believe as an published author he has the responsibility to post accurate information. I can almost guarantee that someone read this and believed every word of his posts to be facts simply because he wrote a book, and totally disregarded mine even though I put links up to prove it. This is exactly how misinformation gets started in the hobby, with a few careless words. Besides I do have a reputation to maintain :angel:

 

[Captain Nemo]

WOW Awesome write up!!! Will def. be tagging along on all this!!!

 

[dougers31]

I may have missed the answer... but would it be a good idea to have either some aragonite(new) sand or (clean) coral rubble in with my ro/di top off water??? I have been thinking of doing something like this for a while and am wondering if there could be side effects to this....

 

[Anthony Calfo]

So, Rick...you've responded about me but not to me. Presumably, we're all on the same team here.

I checked your link before and again, its dead from my browser at least. So I searched the root site for reef pH and toggled "carles" etc to try to find the paper you use to back up your argument here. But I'm sorry, I'm not sure which one you want us to read here. Can I trouble you to repost it?

I sure do appreciate divergent beliefs and positions...i just prefer it to be done cordially if possible. I think I'm either misreading your post or maybe you dont want to accept the criticism you give?

You state, "In fact I am curious where you are getting your data from. All that I have seen..."

Well, my data is from the water I've sampled and tested from the reef countries I was paid to collect on, listed specifically in the previous post. You may have missed that?

And your "all that I have seen" is not as well qualified. Meaning...you may be more qualified than me at testnig the waters from where our corals are collected from, which to me is really all that matters if we are going to cut to the chase, right? I mean...we can cite ph from the farthest ranges of all living reef corals, but that wouldnt be helpful.

I'm not only saying that the pH is high Fiji...I'm saying that the pH is high (over 8.3 min) where the majority of corals are collected in Fiji specifically. Again, thats all that matters. I really think my experience is relevant here. I mean, I have known these collectors in all principal export areas for nearly twenty years. I can name who holds what permits where.

I just presumed people like you would give me the respect I give you...at least until you want to sort it out. At which point I have to ask, what is "all you have seen" again and how is that relevant to the corals we actually keep in aquaria and their very specific origins?

 

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Dougers

To answer your question...yes, it may be helpful to add calcareous media to the purified water vessel, but I wouldn't recommend it. You'll hery little control over the final product water. And, you are presuming that the media will dissolve and buffer, and that may not be the case. If you use a calcite source, your purified water source maynot be acidic enough to even dissolve the calcite. And if you use aragonite, then you probably will get some (maybe significant) dissolution of sand to buffer...but all bets are off on how much and when you'll get it. That can change with the pH of the water coming in as your source water changes (and product water pH subsequently going into the storage vessel), as the purifier gets variously exhausted or refreshed (recharged DI or swapped RO membranes)...even the grain size of the aragonite and its agitation, or not will affect how much gets dissolved.

Instead, you want control...pure water going in...and measurable buffer mix to reconstitute the pure water mildly to support salting or use as evap water for the display (and not be a burden on the overall system alkalinity)

Cheers, my friend

 

[beaslbob]

WOW Anthony Califo is here.

(Sorry I missed this :wink

Thanks for your inputs on the first page here.

I notice that ya'll (I'm in the south. LOL) talking about pH and buffers.

what do you think of this idea?

Using macro algaes to suck out the carbon dioxide so the tank becomes a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen each 24 hour period.

And keep the alk up to limit the night time drops.

I know macros will consume oxygen and return carbon dioxide at night (lights off) but with my old 55g the lowest pH after macros (8.0) was still much higher then the highest pH (7.7) before macros. And the daytime was up to 8.4 or so. then as I got the kh up I noticed the nightime drop was less as well.

Justa thought.

Worth at most .02

 

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, beaslbob...its been a while since I've seen or chatted with you, my friend.

Are you alluding to an RDP (reverse daylight photosynthesis) approach here? Helpful either way, but cant help but wonder if thats maybe what you are getting at...in which case - yes - you can make the argument that one of the (significant) reasons why the niches where our corals are collected from have such strong pH is in part the large nearby niches (lagoons, etc) and biotopes with heavy phyto, macro and some plant biomasses.

For folks not familiar with the RDP strategy...think refugium full of vigorous greens of your choice and illuminated on an opposite photoperiod to your main display for the purpose in part of stabilizing pH.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Following along; Anthony thank you for the informational posts. I'm a little slow, so what I've gathered so far is that if you are topping off with Kalk, then there is no need to buffer (is that correct?). If you're topping off with straight RO/DI, than that water needs to be buffered? Any chance you could share some specifics on the names of the buffering agents that you've used that work? I run relatively small reefs, so it sounds like a liquid buffer of some type may be the way to go, since I don't consistently top off with Kalk. Also you're recommending the buffering of the RO/DI if the aquarium salt is not specifically designed to be used with pure RO/DI water. Do you by chance know which are and which aren't? Like Chris I checked my salt (Reef Crystals), and it says it can be mixed with declorinated tap or purified water, so I assume it is not specificially designed to work with RO/DI water?

 

[Tabasco1]

As a newb this has been a facinating read... although I admit there is so much information that some is precipitating out of my head. Will definately follow along! Thank you everyone for sharing this information and discussion.

Anthony-I must say it is very cool to have you chiming in on this site!

 

[beaslbob]

cheers, beaslbob...its been a while since I've seen or chatted with you, my friend.

Are you alluding to an RDP (reverse daylight photosynthesis) approach here? Helpful either way, but cant help but wonder if thats maybe what you are getting at...in which case - yes - you can make the argument that one of the (significant) reasons why the niches where our corals are collected from have such strong pH is in part the large nearby niches (lagoons, etc) and biotopes with heavy phyto, macro and some plant biomasses.

For folks not familiar with the RDP strategy...think refugium full of vigorous greens of your choice and illuminated on an opposite photoperiod to your main display for the purpose in part of stabilizing pH.

thanks anthony and it has been a long time.

I misspoke and and meant to say the macros consume oxygen and release carbon dioxide at night. Of course the reverse daylight helps keep the pH more level but even without that my 55g still had higher pH with macros then without. Which to me indicates the carbon dioxide was much less. Which I presume is a good thing and newly added fishes after that thrived.

my .02

 

[skinz78]

I do use the RDP method on my tank but all I have in my fuge right now is a softball size ball of Chaeto. Is there any other good macro's that I can add that won't go sexual on me?