Buffering RO/DI?

drainbamage

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Not going to quote anyone particular, just going to attempt a summary and see if I got some of the points-

- Maintaining a pH above 8.2 is desirable as the higher pH will prevent acidification of the tank's water due to adsorption of free CO2 from the surrounding air.

- If CO2 is adsorbed from surrounding air into tank water, water will become more acidic and mineral stabilization will be put at risk, resulting in greater odds of imbalanced water chemistry, or unusability of said minerals by livestock in the tank.

- Tanks running Macro-algae or Micro-algae filters are different from those not running such systems in that the algae will utilize some of the CO2 before it can negatively affect pH. However in tanks not running algae filters, other methods for stabilization can work quite fine (such as an aerator in the form of a protein skimmer, overflow system, baffle walls with disparate water heights creating water falls (natures best aerator in my understanding,) water agitation of the surface via pumps/powerheads, etc.)

- utilizing Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) is not an adequate buffering solution for a goal of raising pH above 8.0, as that is it's pH value. Thus if the goal is to raise pH above 8.0, a different buffering solution needs to be utilized to counteract input of acidic water (RO/DI typically, distilled is a potential option (Oh, and Wy, I always understood Distilled<RO/DI<Typical Tap on the softness scale, is that right?)


These are the things I think I've gathered from this thread, please all correct me where i've misread. Based upon these things, my questions are-

Why is pH important beyond measuring calc/alk/mag? What is pH representing that is not covered by measuring these three mineral components? If calc/alk are excessively elevated, solids will precipitate (as the reaction of carbonates and calcium yields calcium carbonates in a solid form.) If alk/calc are not present in sufficient form, corals are not able to uptake these elements as they need to. I know pH can cover books, and I know of many who are obsessed with it's value, but I've yet to hear a simple understanding of what it is actually important to, that is not covered by these other elemental values. If pH is simply a "summary" of these other values (as has been my longstanding belief due to never finding a better answer,) then that's understood, but the pH folks seem to claim it's something more.

If sufficient mineral levels are maintained in the tank via "typical" methods (dosing, calc reactors, water changes) there is not a need to buffer your RO/DI (top-off) water, correct? However, in systems that run without water changes (a.k.a. closed systems, or mainly closed systems) or dosing (due to previous reason of closed system, or due to not having a heavy load of "stony" corals that require mineral supplimentation anyways) buffering of top-off water is required to prevent acidification of the overall tank system-basically buffering being analogous, if not identical, to the dosing of the minerals commonly seen through "2-part" systems or similar. Is this correct?

I admit when I saw the starting post, the tone seemed to suggest that buffering of top-off water was a MUST that needs be done regardless of anything else going on- is it rather that buffering of some sort MUST happen in a tank, and buffering of top-off water is one method to do it, similarly how dosing of minerals is another method to do it?
 

VegasRick

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- Maintaining a pH above 8.2 is desirable as the higher pH will prevent acidification of the tank's water due to adsorption of free CO2 from the surrounding air.

I haven't heard that before, or maybe I am misunderstanding. A higher pH is desirable, but as far as I know it doesn't prevent it. It just gives a little more leeway. Or maybe thats what you meant.
 

drainbamage

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I haven't heard that before, or maybe I am misunderstanding. A higher pH is desirable, but as far as I know it doesn't prevent it. It just gives a little more leeway. Or maybe thats what you meant.

I'm not sure what I meant, as that's the stuff I was trying to summarize from what I had read in the thread :tongue: I suppose your way of putting it is more correct though, that it does't "immunize" or something, but the higher pH gives a larger buffer before too great of an acidification occurs.
 

drainbamage

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WOW great info! I am learning a lot from this thread!

As much Alk as I have been adding to my tank I can't get my PH to go above 8.15. I am wondering if I should drill through the wall and run my skimmer air line outside to help raise this a bit?

I know this is a debatable topic as well, so I'm not going to try and answer your thought but rather share some hearsay I've heard on the subject (so please take it as such)


I've read much that many don't consider skimmers good aerators- that the "closed" nature of them actually does not produce elevated levels of oxygen saturation into the water column. Thus using a skimmers intake would conceivably not produce the desired affect in your case.

I don't have a stance as I can use armchair science to deduce either side, but obviously that's not a conclusive approach. A decent alternative might be to hook up a piece or airline somewhere in your overflow pipe to get the same affect, but this may not work as well (not enough suction, and could cause noise issues in your overflow) but might be something to try.
 

CJO

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- Maintaining a pH above 8.2 is desirable as the higher pH will prevent acidification of the tank's water due to adsorption of free CO2 from the surrounding air.

The higher pH doesn't prevent acidification or the adsorption of CO2. Lowering the pH is the definition of acidification of water. Based on what Mr. Calfo stated, a higher pH is beneficial to the corals as it is closer to NSW and also allows easier calcification, which leads to higher growth rates.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that ammonia is much more toxic to fish at higher pH levels and could create more issues than would have originally occured at lower pH levels if something dies in your tank.

I've read much that many don't consider skimmers good aerators- that the "closed" nature of them actually does not produce elevated levels of oxygen saturation into the water column. Thus using a skimmers intake would conceivably not produce the desired affect in your case.

I've added a CO2 scrubber to the intake of my skimmer and that has raised my average pH by about 0.2. Running a line outside may or may not be beneficial as many homes have a similar CO2 level in close proximity to the house as they do inside.

CJ
 

CJO

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Got a link for the CO2 scrubber?

I haven't written anything up yet, but you can search for CO2 scrubber on Reef Central, which is where I first heard about it. You basically run an airline from the air intake on your skimmer to a canister (I use a gatorade bottle with holes drilled into it) that holds pellatized soda lime (I use Sofnolime). The air is drawn through the soda lime, which reacts and binds with the CO2 before entering the skimmer. Soda lime is used similarly in rebreathers for scuba diving and for patients under anathesia. Most brands change color when they are used up. I bought a 5-gallon bucket for around $60, which should last me for a year or so.

CJ
 

CJO

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I bought it at a local welding supply shop.. of the top of my head, it was something like National Airgas?

CJ
 

VegasRick

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May have to build me one of those. I have high co2 in my well water and run an air pump in my ro water before it goes into DI.
 

drainbamage

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so what was the final conclusion on buffering of RO/DI?


CJ, were you able to see any benefits directly in the tank after the CO2 scrubber? Might have to rig up one of those as well on a few of my tanks.
 

CJO

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CJ, were you able to see any benefits directly in the tank after the CO2 scrubber? Might have to rig up one of those as well on a few of my tanks.

It has only been a few weeks. It is a simple project and I feel better now that my pH doesn't drop down to around 7.8 at night. I will try to get a go-by put up in the next week or so if anyone else wants to try it out.

CJ
 

drainbamage

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It has only been a few weeks. It is a simple project and I feel better now that my pH doesn't drop down to around 7.8 at night. I will try to get a go-by put up in the next week or so if anyone else wants to try it out.

CJ

Please do! at the least throw a write-up in the DIY forum to keep troylee some company :tongue:
 

Wy Renegade

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Did we get the question on the difference between pH and alkalinity and other parameters answered or not?

What I've been able to find is that pH is a convenient measurement that describes the relative concentration of positive hydrogen ions and negative hydroxyl ions produced by weak acids and dissolved substances.

Whereas alkalinity is the sum of all bases present and the solutions ability to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate.

Hence while alkalinity is often equated as a measurement of how basic a substance is, this in fact is incorrect. pH can increase (i.e. become more basic) without affecting or causing a change in alkalinity.

I do know from personal experience that there is not a direct correlation between pH and alkalinity.
 

mdb_talon

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In regards to the CO2 scrubber I have been using one for about a year and it works great. It took about 2 weeks, but PH is consistently about .3 higher than it was before. I took it off for a few weeks to make sure that was the only difference and not something else that had changed and sure enough it dropped back down. Of course everyone's experience is probably going to depend on how much co2 is in their air/tank.
 

drainbamage

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Did we get the question on the difference between pH and alkalinity and other parameters answered or not?

What I've been able to find is that pH is a convenient measurement that describes the relative concentration of positive hydrogen ions and negative hydroxyl ions produced by weak acids and dissolved substances.

Whereas alkalinity is the sum of all bases present and the solutions ability to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate.

Hence while alkalinity is often equated as a measurement of how basic a substance is, this in fact is incorrect. pH can increase (i.e. become more basic) without affecting or causing a change in alkalinity.

I do know from personal experience that there is not a direct correlation between pH and alkalinity.

I think I might be trying to get too deep of an answer- I've understood the two differences based upon some chemistry text books i dug out, where I've always felt like I missing something in the conversation is the why of testing pH if you're testing the alk and other minerals. Basically for reef aquarium, why should we be concerned with a pH value if testing the others, is it a redundant test or not? I guess I could answer myself that in a world of stability, it's better to know a value than not-but I've felt silly testing pH, and saying "oh, well it's not the right value, you need to fix it" without knowing the "why" of the reason it needs to be fixed. I might not be making sense though with that question, hah.
 

VegasRick

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There is a couple things low pH can be an indicator of in a tank with alk in the proper range. Build up of organics (not so common) and build up of co2. CO2 seems to be the main culprit with low ph.
 

drainbamage

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There is a couple things low pH can be an indicator of in a tank with alk in the proper range. Build up of organics (not so common) and build up of co2. CO2 seems to be the main culprit with low ph.

Yea, pH crashing due to waste build up is one thing, and by then I'm thinking a reef tank would be simply decimated (can't believe how many Oscars i've seen living in water with a pH of 4-5.) I suppose I'm more curious as to the necessity of mainting a pH of 8.3 as opposed to 8.0 or 7.8. In these ranges, what's the difference in regards to the well-being of the reef? (I suppose I'm looking for an answer along the lines of "if your calcium is bellow XX, you'll see less growth, bellow YY, some corals will suffer" or something similar to that sort of thing.)
 

VegasRick

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