Calling all electricians

[Davy Jones]

I am loosing my mind here. I have 3 tanks running in my fish room, with 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits. Randomly the breaker will trip. By randomly, I mean it can be days, weeks, months or hours between trips.

The breakers are both siemens 20 amp GFCI/AFCI breakers.
One circuit was run 2 years ago, the other was done before I bought the house
Both circuits follow the exact same path, and the wiring is in the same holes/boards so every other outlet is a circuit
I run everything on apex eb832's, and those are in turn plugged into surge protectors.

Lighting: 2 orphek atlantik v4's, 1 illumagic blaze 4ft, 1 giesemann aurora t5/led hybrid
Flow: 4 mp40qd's, 2 reef octopus octopulse 2's, 1 octopulse 4
Heat: 4 Eheim 200 watt heaters, all less than 1 year old
UV: 2 40watt pentair uv steralizers
Return pumps: Reef octopus varios8, red dragon rd3 80 watt
Misc pumps: sicce syncra 3.0, current usa dc return,
skimmers: reef octo elite 280 sss, reef octo classic 200 (both using varios 4 pumps)
Misc: 3 tunze ecochic refugium lights, 2 tunze ATO's
I think that covers most of everything in here..

I THINK the problem is actually caused by the dc pumps or even line interference causing the gfci/afci breaker to think there is a problem and trip, but I am not an electrician.

What I want to know, is what steps can I take to help prevent this from happening.

Are there less sensitive gfci/afci breakers i can buy? ( I believe it is code now to require both.)
Would something like ferrite chokes help?
Can I replace the breakers with standard breakers, and wire in a gfci outlet on each circuit instead to remain compliant?
Do I need to run a 3rd circuit in here?

I can post pictures for clarity if needed. I have no idea how to officially test this as again it is completely random, I have tried the unplug everything and plug in 1 at a time but that doesnt cause anything to trip so no help there.

 

[WVNed]

I am not an electrician.
I would run an extension cord from another circuit and plug the 2 UV units into it. I suspect they are causing your issue.
There have been many threads on UVs tripping GFIs on here. It seems to be the type of ballast used for them causes this issue.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Random, intermittent can be difficult. Process of elimination. If you have two circuits and only one is tripping, is it possible to switch things around? See if the problem follows the breaker, or the equipment?

edit. I just noticed that you said afci. These can be quite sensitive to switching loads like relays.

 

[homegrowncichlid]

I believe you should consider not only the running load of all your equipment, which is under the 20 amp limit, but also peak load during start up, which has exceeded your circuit breaker's limit. For example when using UPS for your computer work station, a simple ink jet printer, which doesn't use too much juice, has a start up power drawn that exceeds the UPS causing it to trip, whereas the computer itself, even if your using 1000W power supply, is better controlled and can run off the UPS.

Looking at your list of equipment, you should start removing and transferring them to another line to lower the overall average power draw, It's possible that the circuit breakers trip, when multiple items start up simultaneously. If you have an multimeter, you can also check how much power each device pulls during start up. Start with the pumps you already suspect.

 

[Tonycass12]

Looking at your list of equipment, you should start removing and transferring them to another line to lower the overall average power draw, It's possible that the circuit breakers trip, when multiple items start up simultaneously. If you have an multimeter, you can also check how much power each device pulls during start up. Start with the pumps you already suspect.

I was thinking along the same lines after seeing all of that equipment. You could get some decent fluctuations in demand as heaters are coming on especially if your pumps or anything else ramps up all the sudden at the same time. You can get a voltage monitor to plug the surge protectors into and see whats happening. They even make systems now that can be hooked up in your panel to your breakers you want monitored and they will store the data for you as well to be reviewed after the fact.

 

[theMeat]

If it’s the same breaker all the time would probably change that breaker and see where you’re at. Again, if the problem is on the same breaker, You could also switch the wires between your two runs, at the breaker. If the problem follows to the other breaker, it’s not the breaker and somewhere on that run.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

You might be able to speed up the process of finding what is tripping by putting a titanium grounding probe on the circuit that keeps tripping and turning on devices one by one. If that doesn't work, you could try switching one device until the next time it trips and if the same circuit trips, repeat that process until the other breaker starts tripping. Then you know what is causing the problem.

The other thing I would try is to change the breaker with an identical one and see if it's just a faulty breaker.

These breakers are prone to tripping for things that aren't actually arcs but just something with a high startup load. We never use them nor are required to in commercial applications, so I've always thought it was a bit of BS that they require these in homes now. Coworkers of mine just swapped offending circuits in their houses with GFCI cause something as mundane as a blender or vacuum can trip them. If you chose to go that route be aware that no electrician can legally do it and if that specific circuit causes a fire, your insurance might not cover it.

 

[theMeat]

You might be able to speed up the process of finding what is tripping by putting a titanium grounding probe on the circuit that keeps tripping and turning on devices one by one. If that doesn't work, you could try switching one device until the next time it trips and if the same circuit trips, repeat that process until the other breaker starts tripping. Then you know what is causing the problem.

The other thing I would try is to change the breaker with an identical one and see if it's just a faulty breaker.

These breakers are prone to tripping for things that aren't actually arcs but just something with a high startup load. We never use them nor are required to in commercial applications, so I've always thought it was a bit of BS that they require these in homes now. Coworkers of mine just swapped offending circuits in their houses with GFCI cause something as mundane as a blender or vacuum can trip them. If you chose to go that route be aware that no electrician can legally do it and if that specific circuit causes a fire, your insurance might not cover it.

Sometimes changing the arc breaker does the trick. But you’re right. The arc that some electric motor running makes can be enough to trip em. Unless the line was added in the last few years would question if it was arc protected breakers.
Would test by switch breakers first. That would narrow down the search

Oh, just read op original post. They are afci protected. Would still swap runs/circuits, narrow down the search. Unless it’s new construction, or new elec panel, changing to gfci only protected circuit maybe the best solution. Usually arc protection problematic with large motors as in power tools or large shop vacs or whatnot. Gfci is only required within 6 feet of water source, and technically a tank isn’t a water “source”, but gfci protection paired with ground probe in tank or sump definitely a good idea. If you have all tanks on one sump, ground probe in sump and everything is grounded

 

[edd59]

get rid of the ark breakers. there nothing but problems

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

You might be able to speed up the process of finding what is tripping by putting a titanium grounding probe on the circuit that keeps tripping and turning on devices one by one. If that doesn't work, you could try switching one device until the next time it trips and if the same circuit trips, repeat that process until the other breaker starts tripping. Then you know what is causing the problem.

The other thing I would try is to change the breaker with an identical one and see if it's just a faulty breaker.

These breakers are prone to tripping for things that aren't actually arcs but just something with a high startup load. We never use them nor are required to in commercial applications, so I've always thought it was a bit of BS that they require these in homes now. Coworkers of mine just swapped offending circuits in their houses with GFCI cause something as mundane as a blender or vacuum can trip them. If you chose to go that route be aware that no electrician can legally do it and if that specific circuit causes a fire, your insurance might not cover it.

This is true, HOWEVER… I will also add (I should have stated it earlier) that there could also be an issue not related to equipment. There’s always the oddball rogue staple nicking conductors on separate circuits on a stud (or something similar). Switch on the closet light and it trips the other circuit. So, it could be actually doing its job. If you can’t find the culprit in your equipment, I suggest hiring an electrician to verify this before I would ever tell someone to eliminate a code complaint breaker and replace it with a non-code compliant breaker…. Even if I warned you about insurance not covering a fire. This is not a recommendation ANY electrician should make! And the op should not just remove code compliant devices!

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

get rid of the ark breakers. there nothing but problems

DO NOT GET RID OF CODE COMPLIANT DEVICES! Find the problem, fix it, verify there is no hazard. Hire an electrician if you are not able to isolate it to a piece of equipment! This is bad advice.

 

[theMeat]

If the house or the panel isn’t new, you just say you bought the house that way and it’s fine

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

If the house or the panel isn’t new, you just say you bought the house that way and it’s fine

New is relative. The requirement goes back to 2000 and it’s been updated since.

 

[Justdrew]

Arc Fault Breakers were only required in bedrooms back in 2014. In the NEC 2020 codes they are required in almost all areas except bathrooms.

 

[theMeat]

New is relative. The requirement goes back to 2000 and it’s been updated since.

In 1999 it became required for some rooms but that was easy to get around because rooms are not always used as intended. In 2017 the list of rooms, guest, hallways, etc got longer. As of the last few years, since 2020 I believe, the list includes all breakers except garage, attic, crawl space, bathrooms, as far as I know. Easy to get around if you could say it was there since before required

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Arc Fault Breakers were only required in bedrooms back in 2014. In the NEC 2020 codes they are required in almost all areas except bathrooms.

Every jurisdiction is different. I believe it was in the 1999 nec for bedrooms, and it was not adopted everywhere. It was updated a couple times since I believe, again different adoption dates for different areas. But this isn’t the point

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

In 1999 it became required for some rooms but that was easy to get around because rooms are not always used as intended. In 2017 the list of rooms, guest, hallways, etc got longer. As of the last few years, since 2020 I believe, the list includes all breakers except garage, attic, crawl space, bathrooms, as far as I know

Yes the nec book dates and actual adoption dates varied. I hate inconsistencies like this, you could pull a permit in one city and have to install them pretty much everywhere. Cross the street to a different city and not need them at all.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

To be clear, my intent is not to quote rules, dates, etc. . The op has the breakers already. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that is as they were required. My point. Try to isolate the problem to equipment, breaker or circuit. If the op can’t isolate it to a root cause, hire an electrician. Of coarse, one could do whatever they wish but as they asked for guidance…this would be the responsible guidance.

 

[theMeat]

Having seen arc protection problematic on dishwasher, fridge, washing machine etc. just trying to give practical advice. Would also say an arc has to happen for arc to trip so fire could have already started. Can’t think of a scenario where arc is tripping on a tank, unless breaker is faulty, or there’s some big AC pump or chiller somewhere. If a wire is frayed or a motor not insulated from water would think the gfci protection is tripping the breaker.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Having seen arc protection problematic on dishwasher, fridge, washing machine etc. just trying to give practical advice. Would also say an arc has to happen for arc to trip so fire could have already started. Can’t think of a scenario where arc is tripping on a tank, unless breaker is faulty, or there’s some big AC pump or chiller somewhere. If a wire is frayed or a motor not insulated from water would think the gfci protection is tripping the breaker.

You’d be amazed what can trip an afci. Outside of equipment or breaker, staples, loose connections, shared neutrals, all seem to be common issues. It doesn’t take much. An insulation tester or megger is a very useful tool

edit. I will also add that the early afci breakers were much more problematic. Newer versions have been much better and honestly haven’t had the same issues