Can a DT really be disease-free?

[Areseebee]

And not always in a "box". They put fish in... coffins.

Sounds about right.

Hey here's a bunch of lives that take tons of care that you aren't interested in, good luck!

 

[Humblefish]

And not always in a "box". They put fish in telephone booths, Oldsmobiles, coffins, slot machines etc. They never show you those tanks in a year when someone has to get inside them with a toothbrush to get the algae off the dashboard of the Oldsmobile or the coin slot of the phone.

I was wondering how do they keep those pretty fake decorations looking algae free. Eventually they'll turn black and you won't be able to see the purty colors anymore. Unless they periodically take them out and bleach them.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

But but but... it's natural sea water!!! The sea supports millions of fish! Why wouldn't natural sea water support 25 fish? ;Troll

The water is where all the bacteria is anyway! Starting a new tank? Just add a cup of water from your buddy's and you're good to go! ;Facepalm

 

[Paul B]

I was wondering how do they keep those pretty fake decorations looking algae free. Eventually they'll turn black and you won't be able to see the purty colors anymore. Unless they periodically take them out and bleach them.

That's probably what they do just like I did with the dead corals in the 70s. Clorox for everything then put it back in.

 

[Brew12]

That's probably what they do just like I did with the dead corals in the 70s. Clorox for everything then put it back in.

Not only is Clorox great for cleaning coral, it will cure fish of Ich. Haven't seen a sign of it after the one week bath.

 

[JamesP]

Not only is Clorox great for cleaning coral, it will cure fish of Ich. Haven't seen a sign of it after the one week bath.

I think you should soak his food in selcon. Hes looking a little thin.

 

[Areseebee]

Not only is Clorox great for cleaning coral, it will cure fish of Ich. Haven't seen a sign of it after the one week bath.

I think I see a white spot.

 

[chefjpaul]

Not only is Clorox great for cleaning coral, it will cure fish of Ich. Haven't seen a sign of it after the one week bath.

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

 

[Humblefish]

That's probably what they do just like I did with the dead corals in the 70s. Clorox for everything then put it back in.

Back when I did maintenance, we would do a "coral change" every 4-6 months on a client's tank. Except the owner would always wait until the last minute to bleach the "new corals" going in and our eyes would burn in the van on our way over there. Talk about being a little nervous putting those in the tank. I added dechlorinator for good measure.

 

[Paul B]

I was building my basement around my tank here probably in 1980 or so. You can see I just bleached some corals and put them back. If I really wanted them to pop I would add some hydrochloric acid.
But I rarely dipped my fish in it.

 

[Forsaken77]

No doubt that if a fish isn't eating well some time in a non-medicated QT tank is a good idea. I guess what you do at the end of copper treatment really depends on the theory you subscribe to... if you don't trust copper to eliminate the risk of tomonts hatching, you would move the fish straight to DT or a sterilized QT, and if you subscribe to the theory that 30 days of copper keeps tomonts from hatching, you would remove the copper and let the fish stay put.

I subscribe to the theory that the fish come in with ich on them, even if very minute, and that's pretty much the stage you need to worry about, ime. Having the copper kill off the ich and keeping the eggs from hatching is a 30 day period in 95% of the cases. Yes, there are strains of ich where the egg can lay dormant for well beyond 30 days, but these are strains we rarely encounter in the hobby. And if you do encounter it, that's why the fish is quarantined.

I use Seachem Cupramine along with their own test kit because it's very important to keep higher therapeutic levels during the whole treatment time, but not higher than recommended because it'll poison the fish.

The 30 days is enough time to rid the fish of ich and keep any eggs from hatching. You're also going to be doing a water change in the middle. So vacuuming out along the bottom of a BARE QT tank will help also remove dead ich and eggs. You just have to immediately get the water back to therapeutic levels.

Treating with copper is so you don't have to let those eggs hatch and then treat the free floating ich again. And who says that after two weeks you eradicated every last organism? Some may hang on for 3 weeks. Better to be safe than sorry.

After the 30 days is up, I do almost a 100% water change, because it's only a 13.5 gallon QT system, change the mechanical media, and start the Prazipro treatment. Prazi isn't hard on the fish and it gives you time to see if the fish are flashing against the bottom of the tank to see if you eradicated the ich. The one thing with Prazi is good airation of the water.

After 2 rounds of Prazi, because it's short, I do a 75% water change and let the fish be in regular saltwater for a week of two to see if there's any noticeable signs of anything left wrong with the fish.

I have had a 100% success rate with this plan. Also feeding vitamin enriched food the whole time. The tricky part is QT'ing sand burrowing Wrasses. I had to put a small layer of aragonite in a corner so they could sleep and feel safe.

But you can never tell 100% of the time if the fish is carrying anything from the store because their filter systems are shared between many tanks. So it could have 1 parasite you can't see that could replicate into many more. So I find it best to treat first and ask questions later.

But 2 weeks isn't long enough.

 

[Jimmyneptune]

 

[Crashjack]

I subscribe to the theory that the fish come in with ich on them, even if very minute, and that's pretty much the stage you need to worry about, ime. Having the copper kill off the ich and keeping the eggs from hatching is a 30 day period in 95% of the cases. Yes, there are strains of ich where the egg can lay dormant for well beyond 30 days, but these are strains we rarely encounter in the hobby. And if you do encounter it, that's why the fish is quarantined.

I use Seachem Cupramine along with their own test kit because it's very important to keep higher therapeutic levels during the whole treatment time, but not higher than recommended because it'll poison the fish.

The 30 days is enough time to rid the fish of ich and keep any eggs from hatching. You're also going to be doing a water change in the middle. So vacuuming out along the bottom of a BARE QT tank will help also remove dead ich and eggs. You just have to immediately get the water back to therapeutic levels.

Treating with copper is so you don't have to let those eggs hatch and then treat the free floating ich again. And who says that after two weeks you eradicated every last organism? Some may hang on for 3 weeks. Better to be safe than sorry.

After the 30 days is up, I do almost a 100% water change, because it's only a 13.5 gallon QT system, change the mechanical media, and start the Prazipro treatment. Prazi isn't hard on the fish and it gives you time to see if the fish are flashing against the bottom of the tank to see if you eradicated the ich. The one thing with Prazi is good airation of the water.

After 2 rounds of Prazi, because it's short, I do a 75% water change and let the fish be in regular saltwater for a week of two to see if there's any noticeable signs of anything left wrong with the fish.

I have had a 100% success rate with this plan. Also feeding vitamin enriched food the whole time. The tricky part is QT'ing sand burrowing Wrasses. I had to put a small layer of aragonite in a corner so they could sleep and feel safe.

But you can never tell 100% of the time if the fish is carrying anything from the store because their filter systems are shared between many tanks. So it could have 1 parasite you can't see that could replicate into many more. So I find it best to treat first and ask questions later.

But 2 weeks isn't long enough.

My question stems only around the end of the process. If 30 days of therapeutic copper or CP pretty much guarantees there are no parasites on the fish and no free-swimming parasites but doesn't guaranty the QT is free of non-swimming parasites, why not remove the fish from those therapeutic levels and introduce into the DT or a sterilized QT? Otherwise, when therapeutic levels are removed, non-swimming parasites could continue their cycle and get to the fish. I'm not questioning your method or success, just working through the logistics.

 

[Brew12]

My question stems only around the end of the process. If 30 days of therapeutic copper or CP pretty much guarantees there are no parasites on the fish and no free-swimming parasites but doesn't guaranty the QT is free of non-swimming parasites, why not remove the fish from those therapeutic levels and introduce into the DT or a sterilized QT? Otherwise, when therapeutic levels are removed, non-swimming parasites could continue their cycle and get to the fish. I'm not questioning your method or success, just working through the logistics.

30 days in copper is actually enough to ensure both the free swimming and encysted parasites are killed. If you transfer them from therapeutic levels of copper into a clean QT, you only need to treat them for 10 days. I normally treat them for 14 before transferring.

 

[ascheff]

Tomonts cannot attach to urchins or starfish. However, you'd want to pour some tank water over it (and into a bucket to be discarded) to "wash away" any theronts which might have landed on it. OR you could just isolate it to a fishless environment for 48 hrs to be completely safe.

I was in a discussion with some fellow hobbyists yesterday, discussing quarantining of non-fish. They said tomonts can encysts on any hard surface, but I remembered reading what you wrote about urchins and starfish above. They were not convinced and wanted to know why, but alas, the best I could come up with was "because Humblefish says so".

Can you please elaborate on why tomonts cannot attach to urchins and starfish, while they can on something like the exoskeleton of a shrimp?

 

[Maritimer]

I wonder if it's to do with their pedicillariae - they're claw, beak, or clamp-like organs that help keep the (very complex - and I'm sure that has a lot to do with it!) surfaces of sea stars and urchins clean. Introduction to pedicillariae at the link:

http://echinoblog.blogspot.com/2012/04/the-panoply-of-pedicellariae-post.html

~Bruce

 

[Brew12]

I was in a discussion with some fellow hobbyists yesterday, discussing quarantining of non-fish. They said tomonts can encysts on any hard surface, but I remembered reading what you wrote about urchins and starfish above. They were not convinced and wanted to know why, but alas, the best I could come up with was "because Humblefish says so".

Can you please elaborate on why tomonts cannot attach to urchins and starfish, while they can on something like the exoskeleton of a shrimp?

Dr Burgess did a study in 1992 in which he was able to get tomonts to attach to many different surfaces but he was unable to get them to encyst on Urchins or Asterina starfish. The exoskeleton of a shrimp or crab is much more like a snail shell than an urchin spine. Tomonts did encyst on those.

 

[Paul B]

Burgess was probably correct about that, but I eat a lot of crabs and their gills are up inside their shell so parasites or any pathogen could very easily be transported in the gills or the belly of crabs, urchins, snails etc. There is a lot of water in those creatures where parasites could hide and live fine.
So if you are concerned about parasites, they could be transported on any animal. Just saying.

 

[ascheff]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. It makes sense that these organisms may poses a mechanism to prevent tomonts attaching to them, but I agree that it is plausible that the free swimming parasites can be contained in the water inside the body cavities of these animals.