Can BIOPELLETS reduce PO4 and NO3 holistically?

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Saltees

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For the past year and a half, I’ve been keeping my 120GAL’s [email protected] and NO3 35-40ppm with the help of:
- ATS,
- Refugium (Chaetomorpha),
- NITRAGUARD TITANIUM,
- ROWAPHOS (GFO) @ 1kg/month.

A month ago, I took the GFO offline and went with full load of Dr Tim’s NP Active Pearls Biopellets and added 120ml of Waste Away Bacteria every 48hrs since, with the intent to jumpstart the NYOS TORQ 2L reactor ASAP. My UV is OFF and my skimmer only runs a third (8hrs) of the next day after dosing Waste Away.

During the first week without GFO, my PO4 shot up to 0.9ppm+ and NO3 @ 40ppm.

The numbers remained the same till the last week, the PO4 could be a lot higher, given my HANNA CHECKER PHOSPHATE ULR limit @ 0.9ppm only.

On reading Dr Tim’s Aquatics FAQ, I was told to reduce use GFO to reduce the PO4 to under 1ppm, while cycling the Biopellets. So I added 500gm of GFO, and my PO4 dropped to 0.58ppm after 24 hours, while the NO3 still remained rock solid @ 40ppm.

Today after a month, I’m questioning “Can BIOPELLETS reduce PO4 and NO3 holistically?”

Any advice is appreciated.

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JNalley

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According to this article: https://www.researchgate.net/public...rial_element_ratios_and_nutrient_regeneration

The ratio for bacteria to consume nitrate and phosphate is C: N: P 52:8:1 - 163:25:1

So in order to consume lots of phosphate, you need anywhere between 8 and 25 times the amount of nitrate and 52 to 163 times the amount of organic carbon.

That's all a bit technical, but it might help you in figuring out what's going on. I run a BioPellet reactor (BioChurn 90-INT from Reef Octopus) and it does reduce both my nitrates and phosphates to the point that sometimes I have to dose them to bring them back up, and I heavy feed...
 
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According to this article: https://www.researchgate.net/public...rial_element_ratios_and_nutrient_regeneration

The ratio for bacteria to consume nitrate and phosphate is C: N: P 52:8:1 - 163:25:1

So in order to consume lots of phosphate, you need anywhere between 8 and 25 times the amount of nitrate and 52 to 163 times the amount of organic carbon.

That's all a bit technical, but it might help you in figuring out what's going on. I run a BioPellet reactor (BioChurn 90-INT from Reef Octopus) and it does reduce both my nitrates and phosphates to the point that sometimes I have to dose them to bring them back up, and I heavy feed...
Glad to know that’s working for you, and the ratio on N to bring P down, given that I had GFO to bring my P down from 1+ppm to 0.5ppm, while my N remains at 40ppm, I should have plenty of N to bring down the P further once the GFO had done its due. I’m aiming for the N and P to reach their natural equilibrium without any further use of GFO.

BTW, how long did it take for your PO4 and NO3 to drop on using BIOPELLET? And what were your original numbers before using?

Thanks again!
 
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Glad to know that’s working for you, and the ratio on N to bring P down, given that I had GFO to bring my P down from 1+ppm to 0.5ppm, while my N remains at 40ppm, I should have plenty of N to bring down the P further once the GFO had done its due. I’m aiming for the N and P to reach their natural equilibrium without any further use of GFO.

BTW, how long did it take for your PO4 and NO3 to drop on using BIOPELLET? And what were your original numbers before using?

Thanks again!
I was at about 40ppm NO3 and 0.7 PO4 if I recall correctly. It took about 6-8 weeks for the biopellets to start working at potential... though, after around week 4 I noticed small drops each week (from 40 down to 38ppm for instance). Then it took off like a freight train after week 8 though and bottomed out my nutrients and I had a Dino outbreak. Took care of that, pulled some of the pellets out, dosed the nitrates and phosphates back up, and now I try to keep them at 15-20ppm Nitrate and anywhere from 0.04-0.1 PO4. I find as long as I feed heavily every day, I don't have to worry much and everything stays within range, but if I miss a day or two there's a decent drop that I have to dose back up, especially the nitrates.
 
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I was at about 40ppm NO3 and 0.7 PO4 if I recall correctly. It took about 6-8 weeks for the biopellets to start working at potential... though, after around week 4 I noticed small drops each week (from 40 down to 38ppm for instance). Then it took off like a freight train after week 8 though and bottomed out my nutrients and I had a Dino outbreak. Took care of that, pulled some of the pellets out, dosed the nitrates and phosphates back up, and now I try to keep them at 15-20ppm Nitrate and anywhere from 0.04-0.1 PO4. I find as long as I feed heavily every day, I don't have to worry much and everything stays within range, but if I miss a day or two there's a decent drop that I have to dose back up, especially the nitrates.
Thanks for the share. Didn’t you dose any bacteria, such as Waste Away, Microbacter 7, etc?
 

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Thanks for the share. Didn’t you dose any bacteria, such as Waste Away, Microbacter 7, etc?
I added MB7 for the initial cycle, and had some waste away gel in the tank to help when the Dino's occurred, but this was fresh off the cycle. I was Carbon Dosing my AIO (still am) before I set this tank up, and since the tank came with a biopellet reactor I figured I'd just start it with the reactor (after the initial cycle anyways) instead of trying to carbon dose... It's nearly a year old now, and everything, since the cycle has ended, has been good.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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All types of organic carbon dosing often drop nitrate and not have much impact on phosphate for at least two reasons.

1. Denitrification uses organic carbon to drop nitrate and not phosphate.

2. There is typically a lot of phosphate bound to rock and sand that releases as you try to drop it, so using 0.2 ppm of phosphate can show up as a far smaller actual drop.
 
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All types of organic carbon dosing often drop nitrate and not have much impact on phosphate for at least two reasons.

1. Denitrification uses organic carbon to drop nitrate and not phosphate.

2. There is typically a lot of phosphate bound to rock and sand that releases as you try to drop it, so using 0.2 ppm of phosphate can show up as a far smaller actual drop.
Thanks Randy. I can drop PO4 to under 0.1ppm with GFO for months while my NO3 remains rock solid at 40ppm with +-5ppm. As I stopped GFO, my PO4 went to 1ppm and beyond under a week while my NO3 remained 40ppm there about.

I certainly hope the bacteria are normalizing the C-N-P ratio, to see some reduction to the NO3. As per DrTim’s FAQ on the biopellets, I had introduced 500gm bag of GFO, to bring the runaway PO4 from beyond 1ppm and current 0.5ppm. Not sure how long the GFO will hold , but base of previous exhaustion rate, safe to say under 2 weeks, unless the bacteria kicks in soon. Only time will tell.
 

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Thanks Randy. I can drop PO4 to under 0.1ppm with GFO for months while my NO3 remains rock solid at 40ppm with +-5ppm. As I stopped GFO, my PO4 went to 1ppm and beyond under a week while my NO3 remained 40ppm there about.

Which is likely from phosphate desorbing from calcium carbonate surfaces. That's why phosphate reduction is so challenging, and is also why many folks starting with bare rock have undetectable phosphate for a while at startup (the reverse is happening to them).

Folks are way too concerned with N and P ratios being important. They just aren't. There are many processes in reef tanks that impact N and P independently.

The main thing to understand that seems like a ratio question (but really isn't) is that some processes need both to operate (say, macroalgae growth) and having too low of either N or P (or other elements as well) will limit the export.
 
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Which is likely from phosphate desorbing from calcium carbonate surfaces. That's why phosphate reduction is so challenging, and is also why many folks starting with bare rock have undetectable phosphate for a while at startup (the reverse is happening to them).

Folks are way too concerned with N and P ratios being important. They just aren't. There are many processes in reef tanks that impact N and P independently.

The main thing to understand that seems like a ratio question (but really isn't) is that some processes need both to operate (say, macroalgae growth) and having too low of either N or P (or other elements as well) will limit the export.
Well noted. Both ATS and Chaeto are thriving in my system to warrant a monthly trim.

Given the amount of fishes I have, I'm not expecting the nutrients to be low, but manageable long term biologically with biopellets, instead of depending on chemicals, i.e. LaCl, GFO.

The tank has to find it's equilibrium on those nutrient numbers, I'm just providing the export/reduction means. Cheers.
 
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ReefKeeperElite

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Well noted. Both ATS and Chaeto are thriving in my system to warrant a monthly trim.

Given the amount of fishes I have, I'm not expecting the nutrients to be low, but manageable long term biologically with biopellets, instead of depending on chemicals, i.e. LaCl, GFO.

The tank has to find it's equilibrium on those nutrient numbers, I'm just providing the export/reduction means. Cheers.
I started biopellets in my 200g BB about 6 weeks ago on 08/07. I dosed 40ml MB7 daily for 4 weeks, then dropped to 20ml for weeks 5-6. I dosed 12ml Nopox (3ml, 4x daily) during this timeframe. The MB7 and Nopox were intended to kickstart the biopellets.

I had little drops in N starting from week 4 to week 6, and the past couple of days the biopellets really started to kick in, so I stopped the MB7, and dropped the Nopox to 9ml today (hoping to get off of Nopox entirely soon). I'm looking for a soft landing with my N around 10.

Like you, I was hoping my P would begin to normalize with my N, but so far that has not happened, and probably won't as per Randy's comments. My N was 62 before starting, and my P was off the scale (blinking 200) on my Hanna Phosphorus checker. The last week of N readings are below, and the P is still off the scale, i.e. not budging. I'm wondering if I need to start GFO alongside the biopellets, or if I should take a wait and see approach.

Screenshot 2022-09-20 at 8.28.15 AM.png
 
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For the past year and a half, I’ve been keeping my 120GAL’s [email protected] and NO3 35-40ppm with the help of:
- ATS,
- Refugium (Chaetomorpha),
- NITRAGUARD TITANIUM,
- ROWAPHOS (GFO) @ 1kg/month.

A month ago, I took the GFO offline and went with full load of Dr Tim’s NP Active Pearls Biopellets and added 120ml of Waste Away Bacteria every 48hrs since, with the intent to jumpstart the NYOS TORQ 2L reactor ASAP. My UV is OFF and my skimmer only runs a third (8hrs) of the next day after dosing Waste Away.

During the first week without GFO, my PO4 shot up to 0.9ppm+ and NO3 @ 40ppm.

The numbers remained the same till the last week, the PO4 could be a lot higher, given my HANNA CHECKER PHOSPHATE ULR limit @ 0.9ppm only.

On reading Dr Tim’s Aquatics FAQ, I was told to reduce use GFO to reduce the PO4 to under 1ppm, while cycling the Biopellets. So I added 500gm of GFO, and my PO4 dropped to 0.58ppm after 24 hours, while the NO3 still remained rock solid @ 40ppm.

Today after a month, I’m questioning “Can BIOPELLETS reduce PO4 and NO3 holistically?”

Any advice is appreciated.

1A4E3ED8-B80E-4009-891A-D9C1DCE0B63E.jpeg
I have been running a bio pellet reactor for a year and a half now. My phosphates remain around 0.03 ppm and my nitrates are typically at 3 ppm. The only downside I have experienced with my bio pellet setup is my skimmer gets filled with bio pellet pudding. I have a 150-gallon tank and I run 2 cups of bio pellets in my octopus reactor. I made a DIY macro algae refugium using the Kessel tuna 80 light. I should receive my cheato tomorrow. I will let you know how it works out once I am up and running. The bio pellet reactor was removed in place of my new refugium.
 

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I have been running a bio pellet reactor for a year and a half now. My phosphates remain around 0.03 ppm and my nitrates are typically at 3 ppm. The only downside I have experienced with my bio pellet setup is my skimmer gets filled with bio pellet pudding. I have a 150-gallon tank and I run 2 cups of bio pellets in my octopus reactor. I made a DIY macro algae refugium using the Kessel tuna 80 light. I should receive my cheato tomorrow. I will let you know how it works out once I am up and running. The bio pellet reactor was removed in place of my new refugium.
?? I have my Biopellet reactor and Skimmer in the same chamber and don't get anything close to "Pudding"... Got pics of what you're talking about?
 
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I started biopellets in my 200g BB about 6 weeks ago on 08/07. I dosed 40ml MB7 daily for 4 weeks, then dropped to 20ml for weeks 5-6. I dosed 12ml Nopox (3ml, 4x daily) during this timeframe. The MB7 and Nopox were intended to kickstart the biopellets.

I had little drops in N starting from week 4 to week 6, and the past couple of days the biopellets really started to kick in, so I stopped the MB7, and dropped the Nopox to 9ml today (hoping to get off of Nopox entirely soon). I'm looking for a soft landing with my N around 10.

Like you, I was hoping my P would begin to normalize with my N, but so far that has not happened, and probably won't as per Randy's comments. My N was 62 before starting, and my P was off the scale (blinking 200) on my Hanna Phosphorus checker. The last week of N readings are below, and the P is still off the scale, i.e. not budging. I'm wondering if I need to start GFO alongside the biopellets, or if I should take a wait and see approach.

Screenshot 2022-09-20 at 8.28.15 AM.png
Woah, that’s almost a 50% drop in NO3!

Like what Randy said, perhaps the PO4 are leaching from the substrates. Surely some PO4 are consumed judging from the huge reduction of NO3.

NOPOX is liquid carbon dosing itself and MB7 is the bacteria liken to DrTim’s WASTE AWAY, a means to jump start the biopellets.

In my case , it was mentioned on DrTim’s FAQ for NP ACTIVE PEARLS (biopellets) to bring down the PO4 with GFO to below 1ppm (HANNA Checker Phosphate ULR showed a “blinking” 0.90ppm before). Which was what I did to halve the PO4 to 0.45ppm with 500gm of ROWAPHOS on 16 SEP.

Finally my NO3 started to drop some to 26.5ppm yesterday 20 SEP. I would assume PO4 had gone down since 16 SEP, but I wouldn’t know if it’s GFO or the bacteria’s cause.

No sure how relevant are my readings to you, but sure hope it helps. Cheers!


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I have been running a bio pellet reactor for a year and a half now. My phosphates remain around 0.03 ppm and my nitrates are typically at 3 ppm. The only downside I have experienced with my bio pellet setup is my skimmer gets filled with bio pellet pudding. I have a 150-gallon tank and I run 2 cups of bio pellets in my octopus reactor. I made a DIY macro algae refugium using the Kessel tuna 80 light. I should receive my cheato tomorrow. I will let you know how it works out once I am up and running. The bio pellet reactor was removed in place of my new refugium.
My case is the total reverse of yours, whereby I’ve been running both ATS (Hair algae) and Chaeto/Caulepa mixed refugium for 1 and 1/2 years. They have been inadequate for my bio load, and I’ve been supplementing with GFO and occasionally with LACL to keep my PO4 below 0.1ppm, and with NO3, it’s pretty much between 20-40ppm.

You’re having very good numbers with biopellets I must say!
 

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Woah, that’s almost a 50% drop in NO3!

Like what Randy said, perhaps the PO4 are leaching from the substrates. Surely some PO4 are consumed judging from the huge reduction of NO3.

NOPOX is liquid carbon dosing itself and MB7 is the bacteria liken to DrTim’s WASTE AWAY, a means to jump start the biopellets.

In my case , it was mentioned on DrTim’s FAQ for NP ACTIVE PEARLS (biopellets) to bring down the PO4 with GFO to below 1ppm (HANNA Checker Phosphate ULR showed a “blinking” 0.90ppm before). Which was what I did to halve the PO4 to 0.45ppm with 500gm of ROWAPHOS on 16 SEP.

Finally my NO3 started to drop some to 26.5ppm yesterday 20 SEP. I would assume PO4 had gone down since 16 SEP, but I wouldn’t know if it’s GFO or the bacteria’s cause.

No sure how relevant are my readings to you, but sure hope it helps. Cheers!


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E7FAAD46-C1A4-4808-B048-D7915D875B10.png
I believe so. Even though the Phosphorus ULR reading has been blinking 200 during the entire trip from 62 N, to 35 N, it could be that the reading would show it going down if the max was more than 200. E.g. from 250 to 210 if the readings went higher, instead of blinking 200. So I only have the darkness of the blue test water to go by, which "seems" a bit lighter to the naked eye, but still not light enough to bust the 200 barrier. Still blinking 200 this morning.

Also, I have a bare bottom tank, with no substrate. Just live rock, 10 fish, and a few coral at the moment. It has been running for about 12 years, counting a tank transfer to my new 200g tank about 2 years ago. So I'd imagine a lot of P can be absorbed into the rock during that timeframe, and may need more than biopellets to desorb it efficiently.

At any rate, from my perspective the biopellets seem to be doing very little to bring down the P, and I will need to run GFO as well. I intend to start that up soon, and expect to see much quicker drop. My need to quickly get the P down outweighs my interest to see how much biopellets affects the P.
 
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I believe so. Even though the Phosphorus ULR reading has been blinking 200 during the entire trip from 62 N, to 35 N, it could be that the reading would show it going down if the max was more than 200. E.g. from 250 to 210 if the readings went higher, instead of blinking 200. So I only have the darkness of the blue test water to go by, which "seems" a bit lighter to the naked eye, but still not light enough to bust the 200 barrier. Still blinking 200 this morning.

Also, I have a bare bottom tank, with no substrate. Just live rock, 10 fish, and a few coral at the moment. It has been running for about 12 years, counting a tank transfer to my new 200g tank about 2 years ago. So I'd imagine a lot of P can be absorbed into the rock during that timeframe, and may need more than biopellets to desorb it efficiently.

At any rate, from my perspective the biopellets seem to be doing very little to bring down the P, and I will need to run GFO as well. I intend to start that up soon, and expect to see much quicker drop. My need to quickly get the P down outweighs my interest to see how much biopellets affects the P.
You will need a lot of GFO. I was going through 1kg every 3-4 weeks on my 120G just to MAINTAIN the PO4 under 0.1ppm for the past year or so. Anything higher than 0.1ppm was brought down diligently, cheaply with TM Elimi-Phos Rapid (Lanthanum Chloride) dosed directly into the neck of the skimmer. Do let us know how it goes?
 
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I believe so. Even though the Phosphorus ULR reading has been blinking 200 during the entire trip from 62 N, to 35 N, it could be that the reading would show it going down if the max was more than 200. E.g. from 250 to 210 if the readings went higher, instead of blinking 200. So I only have the darkness of the blue test water to go by, which "seems" a bit lighter to the naked eye, but still not light enough to bust the 200 barrier. Still blinking 200 this morning.

Also, I have a bare bottom tank, with no substrate. Just live rock, 10 fish, and a few coral at the moment. It has been running for about 12 years, counting a tank transfer to my new 200g tank about 2 years ago. So I'd imagine a lot of P can be absorbed into the rock during that timeframe, and may need more than biopellets to desorb it efficiently.

At any rate, from my perspective the biopellets seem to be doing very little to bring down the P, and I will need to run GFO as well. I intend to start that up soon, and expect to see much quicker drop. My need to quickly get the P down outweighs my interest to see how much biopellets affects the P.
I agree with you here, it's likely well over 200 since that's the cap for the Hanna Phosphorous checker... If it's at least close to 200, then at least you know your phosphate is between .6 and .7 but until you come down from 200 we won't really know how/what we're measuring here. You're gonna need to run GFO to bring it down. Personally, I'd run it until you're at 0.1 or lower, and then stop and see where you're at with just biopellets after that.

But I am still interested in seeing this "pudding" you speak of. Which brand of biopellets are you using? If what I am picturing in my mind is close, it's sounding to me like your biopellets are breaking down faster than they should.
 

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I agree with you here, it's likely well over 200 since that's the cap for the Hanna Phosphorous checker... If it's at least close to 200, then at least you know your phosphate is between .6 and .7 but until you come down from 200 we won't really know how/what we're measuring here. You're gonna need to run GFO to bring it down. Personally, I'd run it until you're at 0.1 or lower, and then stop and see where you're at with just biopellets after that.

But I am still interested in seeing this "pudding" you speak of. Which brand of biopellets are you using? If what I am picturing in my mind is close, it's sounding to me like your biopellets are breaking down faster than they should.
Thanks, I'll be starting GFO today and will let you know how it goes.

That was somebody else who reported the "pudding", not I. I've never seen this "pudding" effect while running biopellets.
 
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