Dinoflagellates or Something Else. . . My battle.

[AppleJack]

I am posting to see if anyone might have an answer, but also posting to track my battle with whatever this stuff is.

-Background
I got a Red Sea S625 G2 from a buddy. When I picked it up I noticed no algae was present even with it being 2 years old. It came with fish (White Tail Bristle Tooth Tang, Blue Hippo, Foxface Lo, Bimaculatus Anthias, Coral Beauty). I did replace all the sand. While moving the tank I noticed a brass fitting. Changed that out and knew I was going to have to pull out copper. Started pulling out copper with some cuprisorb and 2 months later started noticing some pods and film algae growing. Wooo! Kept the cuprisorb in there (changing it once it was exhausted). Copper test was finally reading 0 and was able to move my 20 Gallon corals over to the S625 along with the live rock and 2 clown fish. About 2 months after the copper removal (4 Month after Move). I started to notice my Nitrates creeping up to 30 ppm and Phosphates crept up to 1.0 ppm. I know... Added Grape Caulerpa and a light to the sump and continued my 10% water changes weekly, also reduced feeding slightly to help bring these down slowly. My red sea skimmer sensor crapped the bed and it took forever to get it dialed in without the sensor and was overflowing weekly. Got that fixed now. A month (5 Month Mark) I noticed what I thought was a Diatom bloom, waited it out, and it only got worse. It started coating the rocks in a mat that collected bubbles. By this time my Nitrates were down to 10 ppm and Phosphates were at 0.5 ppm. Better but not perfect. The green mat was starting to collect bubbles and in some areas it would become stringy and collect bubbles. I decided to dose Chemi Clean in the hopes it was just a delayed Cyano bloom from the nutrients being high. Chemi Clean didn't touch them. Crap! So now they aren't much better and I've been debating on whether it being Dino's or not. I would blow off the rock, and 90% of it would blow off but some little bit would always stay stuck to it. I would syphon the sand with water changes and clean the glass nearly every 3 days before it was brown/green again. The crap would come back all over the rocks and sand within 2-3 days. When I scrape the glass it doesn't come off in a dust but rather comes off in a slimy sheet. I had enough. Luckily for me, my neighbors are professors of Botany and Microbiology and had a microscope at the ready so I could see these boogers under a microscope. Granted they aren't marine biologist but couldn't confirm or deny what they exactly were. But they felt confident it wasn't Cyano unless it was a Cyano that looks different they weren't familiar with and it would be Chemi Clean Resistant. Also lucky for me their colleague, a Professor of Algology, was willing to look at a sample. I am eagerly awaiting his thoughts. . .

-Algae Description
Green
Collects Bubbles and stringy only on the rocks.
Sticks to the Sand, Rocks, and Glass
Doesn't entirely go away at night but does reduce.
Under 400x the green cell's didn't really "spin" but maybe 5% of them moved.
Not uniform is shape, some are oblong, some are round.

-Equipment
Red Sea RS Lights (3x)
Red Sea Skimmer
Red Sea Reef Mat
Red Sea Reef Wave 45 (2x)
Aqua UV 25 UV Sterilizer - Pending new Bulb. Need to hook this up.
Carbon is being changed weekly.
GFO - Changing this every few days to bring down Phosphate.

-My Thoughts
Dino's are typically brown. But I imagine they could easily be green. Could maybe be Procoentrum sp. but are too small? Could be Calothrix? Thinking of doing a 3 day black out once I have the UV sterilizer going. Once the bloom is minimized need to dose Microbacter 7, and Live Phyto as well as some pods? Why would Dino's come along when my nutrients are high, aren't they "typically" a bottom out species and only thrive when NO3 and PO4 is near 0. RO is reading 0 ppm. It did get up to about 5 ppm about the time this started and didn't catch it. Could dose Silicates to induce a Diatom Bloom, but need water parameters and root issue solved before even thinking about that.

While I have been changing Carbon and GFO nearly weekly for a few weeks. I am starting the day time when I am getting more aggressive with treatment. I've read a ton of threads over the last couple of weeks trying to figure out and I am still unsure.

Day 1 -
Lowered light period from 8 hours to 6 hours and lowered intensity to about 50%.
Took water to LFS to confirm test results
NO3 - 10 ppm (Red Sea)
PO4 - 0.1 ppm (Red Sea)

Odd because my PO4 at home reads 0.5 ppm (Saliftert)

LFS suggested Flucanozole. Not dead set on trying this just yet.

Day 2-
Blow off rock, clean glass, 15% water change. Likely my last water change for a while. Dosed Seachem Pristine - Maybe against my better judgement but at the advice of my LFS. With it being bacteria I couldn't see it hurting.

 

[Dan_P]

I am posting to see if anyone might have an answer, but also posting to track my battle with whatever this stuff is.

-Background
I got a Red Sea S625 G2 from a buddy. When I picked it up I noticed no algae was present even with it being 2 years old. It came with fish (White Tail Bristle Tooth Tang, Blue Hippo, Foxface Lo, Bimaculatus Anthias, Coral Beauty). I did replace all the sand. While moving the tank I noticed a brass fitting. Changed that out and knew I was going to have to pull out copper. Started pulling out copper with some cuprisorb and 2 months later started noticing some pods and film algae growing. Wooo! Kept the cuprisorb in there (changing it once it was exhausted). Copper test was finally reading 0 and was able to move my 20 Gallon corals over to the S625 along with the live rock and 2 clown fish. About 2 months after the copper removal (4 Month after Move). I started to notice my Nitrates creeping up to 30 ppm and Phosphates crept up to 1.0 ppm. I know... Added Grape Caulerpa and a light to the sump and continued my 10% water changes weekly, also reduced feeding slightly to help bring these down slowly. My red sea skimmer sensor crapped the bed and it took forever to get it dialed in without the sensor and was overflowing weekly. Got that fixed now. A month (5 Month Mark) I noticed what I thought was a Diatom bloom, waited it out, and it only got worse. It started coating the rocks in a mat that collected bubbles. By this time my Nitrates were down to 10 ppm and Phosphates were at 0.5 ppm. Better but not perfect. The green mat was starting to collect bubbles and in some areas it would become stringy and collect bubbles. I decided to dose Chemi Clean in the hopes it was just a delayed Cyano bloom from the nutrients being high. Chemi Clean didn't touch them. Crap! So now they aren't much better and I've been debating on whether it being Dino's or not. I would blow off the rock, and 90% of it would blow off but some little bit would always stay stuck to it. I would syphon the sand with water changes and clean the glass nearly every 3 days before it was brown/green again. The crap would come back all over the rocks and sand within 2-3 days. When I scrape the glass it doesn't come off in a dust but rather comes off in a slimy sheet. I had enough. Luckily for me, my neighbors are professors of Botany and Microbiology and had a microscope at the ready so I could see these boogers under a microscope. Granted they aren't marine biologist but couldn't confirm or deny what they exactly were. But they felt confident it wasn't Cyano unless it was a Cyano that looks different they weren't familiar with and it would be Chemi Clean Resistant. Also lucky for me their colleague, a Professor of Algology, was willing to look at a sample. I am eagerly awaiting his thoughts. . .

-Algae Description
Green
Collects Bubbles and stringy only on the rocks.
Sticks to the Sand, Rocks, and Glass
Doesn't entirely go away at night but does reduce.
Under 400x the green cell's didn't really "spin" but maybe 5% of them moved.
Not uniform is shape, some are oblong, some are round.

-Equipment
Red Sea RS Lights (3x)
Red Sea Skimmer
Red Sea Reef Mat
Red Sea Reef Wave 45 (2x)
Aqua UV 25 UV Sterilizer - Pending new Bulb. Need to hook this up.
Carbon is being changed weekly.
GFO - Changing this every few days to bring down Phosphate.

-My Thoughts
Dino's are typically brown. But I imagine they could easily be green. Could maybe be Procoentrum sp. but are too small? Could be Calothrix? Thinking of doing a 3 day black out once I have the UV sterilizer going. Once the bloom is minimized need to dose Microbacter 7, and Live Phyto as well as some pods? Why would Dino's come along when my nutrients are high, aren't they "typically" a bottom out species and only thrive when NO3 and PO4 is near 0. RO is reading 0 ppm. It did get up to about 5 ppm about the time this started and didn't catch it. Could dose Silicates to induce a Diatom Bloom, but need water parameters and root issue solved before even thinking about that.

While I have been changing Carbon and GFO nearly weekly for a few weeks. I am starting the day time when I am getting more aggressive with treatment. I've read a ton of threads over the last couple of weeks trying to figure out and I am still unsure.

Day 1 -
Lowered light period from 8 hours to 6 hours and lowered intensity to about 50%.
Took water to LFS to confirm test results
NO3 - 10 ppm (Red Sea)
PO4 - 0.1 ppm (Red Sea)

Odd because my PO4 at home reads 0.5 ppm (Saliftert)

LFS suggested Flucanozole. Not dead set on trying this just yet.

Day 2-
Blow off rock, clean glass, 15% water change. Likely my last water change for a while. Dosed Seachem Pristine - Maybe against my better judgement but at the advice of my LFS. With it being bacteria I couldn't see it hurting.

Looks like a single cell micro algae. Cyanobacteria typically don’t show such clear internal structures. I never heard of green dinoflagellates.

Did these organisms appear after diatom growth disappeared?

 

[winxp_man]

Looks like a single cell micro algae. Cyanobacteria typically don’t show such clear internal structures. I never heard of green dinoflagellates.

Did these organisms appear after diatom growth disappeared?

Looks to me. My new 300+ system since beginning of April is getting this. The diatoms are on the way out. But the many tangs I have eat up most of it.

 

[EnterName]

I second unicellular green algae. Those rocks look like brand new dry rock. Live rock is dark, and overgrown with coralline.

I think your tank is going through a second ugly phase caused by the finally reduced copper, new substrate, and apparently also some new rocks. The new sand will have caused diatoms in the beginning, but now that the residual silicate is depleted other organisms take over. When starting a new tank green hair algae would establish at this point, but for some reason it's a microalgae in your tank.

I would keep reducing nutrients and see what happens with some time.

 

[AppleJack]

Looks like a single cell micro algae. Cyanobacteria typically don’t show such clear internal structures. I never heard of green dinoflagellates.

Did these organisms appear after diatom growth disappeared?

Yeah, they came probably a couple of weeks after my small Diatom bloom.

 

[AppleJack]

Looks to me. My new 300+ system since beginning of April is getting this. The diatoms are on the way out. But the many tangs I have eat up most of it.

My tangs won't really touch the stuff unfortunately. My foxface goes after it a little bit but not enough to keep it at bay. Only my small Lawnmower munches on it all day. But him in a S625 isn't making much of a dent. I imagine a handful of extra turbo snails won't hurt.

 

[AppleJack]

I second unicellular green algae. Those rocks look like brand new dry rock. Live rock is dark, and overgrown with coralline.

I think your tank is going through a second ugly phase caused by the finally reduced copper, new substrate, and apparently also some new rocks. The new sand will have caused diatoms in the beginning, but now that the residual silicate is depleted other organisms take over. When starting a new tank green hair algae would establish at this point, but for some reason it's a microalgae in your tank.

I would keep reducing nutrients and see what happens with some time.

I agree the rocks do look brand new. These are the rocks that sat in the tank for 2 years with the copper. I did seed the tank with about 20-25 lbs of live rock from my tank I tore down after setting this one up. But only after I removed the copper.

I can deal with a 2nd ugly phase over Dino's any day.

Would the Unicellular Green Algae minimize at night and come back more in the day?

 

[winxp_man]

My tangs won't really touch the stuff unfortunately. My foxface goes after it a little bit but not enough to keep it at bay. Only my small Lawnmower munches on it all day. But him in a S625 isn't making much of a dent. I imagine a handful of extra turbo snails won't hurt.

Had this stuff on PVC pipes in a QT system. Put a hybrid powder blue and white cheek tang dude licked up all of it! Cleaned it out haha. And the flame and coral beauty tagged in on it haha.

 

[EnterName]

I second unicellular green algae. Those rocks look like brand new dry rock. Live rock is dark, and overgrown with coralline.

I think your tank is going through a second ugly phase caused by the finally reduced copper, new substrate, and apparently also some new rocks. The new sand will have caused diatoms in the beginning, but now that the residual silicate is depleted other organisms take over. When starting a new tank green hair algae would establish at this point, but for some reason it's a microalgae in your tank.

I would keep reducing nutrients and see what happens with some time.

I agree the rocks do look brand new. These are the rocks that sat in the tank for 2 years with the copper. I did seed the tank with about 20-25 lbs of live rock from my tank I tore down after setting this one up. But only after I removed the copper.

I can deal with a 2nd ugly phase over Dino's any day.

Would the Unicellular Green Algae minimize at night and come back more in the day?

Yes, pretty much all microalgae stains can grow and shrink throughout the day. I'm currently observing this with microscope-verified diatoms as well. It's just not as pronounced as with dinoflagellates.

Dinos don't necessarily are an issue or hard to get rid of, either. It really depends on what's the underlying issue. Sometimes they are an absolute plague, other times they go on their own.

 

[AppleJack]

Yes, pretty much all microalgae stains can grow and shrink throughout the day. I'm currently observing this with microscope-verified diatoms as well. It's just not as pronounced as with dinoflagellates.

Dinos don't necessarily are an issue or hard to get rid of, either. It really depends on what's the underlying issue. Sometimes they are an absolute plague, other times they go on their own.

Really hoping they go away on their own. But I have a gameplan and am going to implement it regardless as it will be beneficial in the long run.

-Get UV bulb installed - Ordered, just waiting for it to come.
-Keep Nitrates at 10 ppm - Check!
-Get Phosphates at 0.15 ppm - Salifert Reads 0.5 ppm and Red Sea Reads 0.1 ppm. Taking a sample to another fish store where they can test it with a fancier system. The name fails me. . .
-Increase clean up crew.
-Keep manual removal and 10% water changes weekly providing it won't bottom out my nutrients.

 

[EnterName]

I can highly recommend the ULR Phosphate (HI774) or ULR Phosphorus (HI736) HannaChecker. The first one is simpler to use for most people as you don't need to multiple the results with 0.003066 to get from ppb phosphorus (P) to ppm phosphate (PO₄), but both will work. A test takes like 5 minutes and you only need 1 reagent making it really simple to use.

It's the only way I'm able to keep my ultra low nutrient system where I want it. In my opinion 0.10ppm PO₄ is already plenty and gives you enough headroom to not risk bottoming out completely. I'm usually running my system below 0.05ppm PO₄ and don't have any issues with dinoflagellates.

Whenever there is some nuisance algae, I would go for lower nutrients than usual, as the tests can only show what is still dissolved in water. But all the nuisance algae is full of nutrients and has accumulated them which means there is much more in your tank, it's just being taken up very fast.

I would suggest an ICP-MS test if you haven't done one already to make sure you really got rid of all excessive copper. It will also help you to fix potentially missing trace elements, and once everything is back where it should be you just have to be patient .

 

[AppleJack]

You were right. It is a unicellular micro algae. The Algologist confirmed its Euglena. NOT Dinos! Woo! Although same protocol to get rid of them as Dinos from what I've read. Maybe be slightly easier too.
Ill get my hands on a Hannah Checker.
Not sure where my phosphates are coming from. I feed lightly and not frozen. My RO is reading 0 TDS but ive read phosphates can still seep through? Anyone have any confirmation on this?
Going to test my RO phosphate woth Salifert until I get the Hannah checker.

Now that we know its Euglena jas anyone experience these? Or what did you to combat them? Not a whole lot of info online.

Once I get to my desktop I will update the name of this thread if I can figure it out.

 

[EnterName]

You were right. It is a unicellular micro algae. The Algologist confirmed its Euglena. NOT Dinos! Woo! Although same protocol to get rid of them as Dinos from what I've read. Maybe be slightly easier too.
Ill get my hands on a Hannah Checker.
Not sure where my phosphates are coming from. I feed lightly and not frozen. My RO is reading 0 TDS but ive read phosphates can still seep through? Anyone have any confirmation on this?
Going to test my RO phosphate woth Salifert until I get the Hannah checker.

Now that we know its Euglena jas anyone experience these? Or what did you to combat them? Not a whole lot of info online.

Once I get to my desktop I will update the name of this thread if I can figure it out.

Are you sure he didn't mean Euglenida (Class)? There are very few species that belong to the Euglena genus and tolerate saltwater, but maybe it fits one of them or he thought it was a freshwater tank...

Some also have cyst states for when they are in stressful environments (the salinity might be causing this), which would explain the round shape, but not why they are still growing.


However, if they are truly active they should have a free swimming stage which would be susceptible to UV sterilization, as well as manual filtration with low micron filter media. It's possible that they produce toxins so continue running carbon if there is anything in the tank you want to keep alive. The rest is the typical manual removal combined with water changes, nutrient reduction, and patience.

Also: double check your salinity, maybe you can increase it slightly without causing issues which could solve the problem if the algae is already stressed and building cysts.

 

[AppleJack]

Here is his quote from his text..

"When she brought the sample to me it was very much like a freshwater alga which formed very green gelatinous colonies. My first thought from a poor quality microscope was that if it was a Dinoflagellate, it was in a non-mobile, senescent state however it was the wrong color (dark green instead of brown or golden brown strands). I did see Euglenoids but was not familiar with marine species. Today, with good optics at school, they were obviously Euglenoids….senescent, motile, and obvious ones undergoing metaboly(wildly changing form……they have a proteinaceous pellicle rather than a hard cell wall and it makes them flexible). I know that these guys are not toxin producers but in f-w a sign of organic nitrogen. So, should be easier to control than Dinos. "

So yeah maybe calling Euglena was incorrect on my part.

Salinity is already at 1.026.

 

[AppleJack]

I also have a feeling these are the toxic variety as ive lost a few fish and other fish are stressed. Probably a mixture of wild oxygen swings and toxins. I do have a bubbler in the tank, skimmer running, and surface agitation to mitigate the possibility of low oxygen.

 

[EnterName]

I also have a feeling these are the toxic variety as ive lost a few fish and other fish are stressed. Probably a mixture of wild oxygen swings and toxins. I do have a bubbler in the tank, skimmer running, and surface agitation to mitigate the possibility of low oxygen.

Why would oxygen levels be low? Euglenids are photosynthetic and produce oxygen (hence the bubbles in your photos). If you haven't already, order an ICP test (preferably ICP-MS over ICP-OES) and start preparing water for water changes. Frequently replace the activated charcoal if toxins are actually the issue, this might help a little bit...

I'm not sure what the best solution is right now... If they are indeed toxic, it's possible that using an algaecide, blackout, or similar method will cause more toxins to be released. So we need to make a decision if a fast solution actually works here or causes even more issues.

Let's see if some #reefsquad members can help. I think this is enough of an emergency to tag them.

 

[Privateye]

Why would oxygen levels be low? Euglenids are photosynthetic and produce oxygen (hence the bubbles in your photos).

Algae produces oxygen during daylight hours, but consumes oxygen at night. That's why when you test dissolved oxygen in ponds, you do it right before sunrise. That will be your point of lowest oxygen each day.

 

[EnterName]

Algae produces oxygen during daylight hours, but consumes oxygen at night. That's why when you test dissolved oxygen in ponds, you do it right before sunrise. That will be your point of lowest oxygen each day.

Fair point, but the skimmer and bubbler should be enough. It's not like a bacteria bloom that more or less only consumes oxygen without providing much.

 

[Privateye]

Fair point, but the skimmer and bubbler should be enough. It's not like a bacteria bloom that more or less only consumes oxygen without providing much.

Totally. Our tanks have relatively-low bioloads as far as aquatic systems go. If dissolved oxygen was an issue in home aquariums we'd monitor it. Even the bacterial blooms we experience have limited effect on oxygen (at least as far as our animals are concerned). This comes into play more when you're dealing with ponds, especially those used for aquaculture. The catfish guys know this phenomenon well.

 

[AppleJack]

I did a 36 hour blackout to see how much it would minimize them. I would say it reduced them by 85%. Today I did notice by the end of the day they were starting to come back and it will only get exponentially worse. Just waiting on a UV bulb before going aggressive with blackouts and UV.

Debating on doing the H2o2 dosing (1ml per 10 gallon) with it. Nothing to lose at this point.

I will get an ICP test ordered. But from latest test results at LFS
No3 10 ppm
Po4 0.15 ppm
Salinity 1.026
Ph 8.0 at lights out. (Need to bring this up slightly to avoid dipping at night or during blackout.)