Can I get an ID Please

[TheDon]

Been battling LCA and I was using the UV sweeper on sand for a while but haven’t used it since 12th September. Started my 10% water changes up again on 17th September on my reefer 250 and was cleaning top of sand, this was holding back the brown patches. Also dosing Tropic Marin Nitribiotic weekly, most of my slides I’ve looked at have been a lot of detritus and what look like diatoms. I’ve had a few cells that look like dinoflagellates but they haven’t been moving on slides!

Well today I found some that are moving! Am I still in the grips of LCA? If yes what do I do next!

• Do I continue with UV sand sweeping or do I just use the waterglass I’ve bought.

• Do I stop water changes?

 

[TheDon]

Another video, I do have quite a lot of the golden shards on slides.

 

[EnterName]

Sorry, I didn't see your post earlier.

That's Amphidinium (or Testudodinium but the community is treating it as Amphidinium anyways). The epicone (the "beak" of the typical Amphidinium species we frequently see in reef tanks) is less pronounced in your particular strain, but that's not too unusual. Depending on the focus of your scope, but also environmental factors, and the actual species/strain morphological features can vary quite a lot. Amphidinium also doesn't have a theca (armor) so the cell can change its shape significantly.

Light microscopy isn't really enough for a proper identification, but species like Amphidinium mootonorum (third row, image 1, and 2 or G & H) have a much less obvious epicone, so it's just a less common morphotype. Post #3 in my microscopy thread show how diverse the morphology of Amphidinium (and look-alikes) really is.

If you just found a few cells that's nothing to worry about. Dinoflagellates are part of the natural food chain and just as diatoms they will be always present in your tank somewhere. If you actually see them causing discoloration of the substrate or so, then it might be time to get active again.

 

[TheDon]

Sorry, I didn't see your post earlier.

That's Amphidinium (or Testudodinium but the community is treating it as Amphidinium anyways). The epicone (the "beak" of the typical Amphidinium species we frequently see in reef tanks) is less pronounced in your particular strain, but that's not too unusual. Depending on the focus of your scope, but also environmental factors, and the actual species/strain morphological features can vary quite a lot. Amphidinium also doesn't have a theca (armor) so the cell can change its shape significantly.

Light microscopy isn't really enough for a proper identification, but species like Amphidinium mootonorum (third row, image 1, and 2 or G & H) have a much less obvious epicone, so it's just a less common morphotype. Post #3 in my microscopy thread show how diverse the morphology of Amphidinium (and look-alikes) really is.

If you just found a few cells that's nothing to worry about. Dinoflagellates are part of the natural food chain and just as diatoms they will be always present in your tank somewhere. If you actually see them causing discoloration of the substrate or so, then it might be time to get active again.

I’m still battling these, are they still LCA? I may give waterglass a go and bring on some diatoms because sand is beginning to look crap again.
Any advice welcome

 

[EnterName]

I’m still battling these, are they still LCA? I may give waterglass a go and bring on some diatoms because sand is beginning to look crap again.
Any advice welcome

[Media]

It's really hard to tell from the videos as the focus is often off. If you see the cell having a "beak" (epicone) it's "Amphidinium". If it has a translucent layer around itself (theca) it is more likely prorocentrum. It's also possible to have both.

You can see high resolution images of Prorocentrum here.
And Amphidinium in various shapes and sizes here.

Amphidinium: No theca, variable shape, often asymmetric, beak, if you leave the cells for longer on the slide they often become circular/round.

Prorocentrum: Theca, relatively consistent and symmetric shape, little concave anterior side.

 

[TheDon]

Still battling these, I’ve stopped using UV Sand Sweeper and they are coming back with a vengeance!

 

[EnterName]

How old is the tank?
Do you know nitrate and phosphate readings?

We have looked at the potential genus of dinoflagellate and you tried UV, but we haven't really talked about treatment methods which often include messing with nutrient levels together with UV and other things.

 

[TheDon]

How old is the tank?
Do you know nitrate and phosphate readings?

We have looked at the potential genus of dinoflagellate and you tried UV, but we haven't really talked about treatment methods which often include messing with nutrient levels together with UV and other things.

Thank you for helping.

Tank was started in Jan with old rock from previous tank as this was an upgrade. Sand was new Caribsea Pink Fiji, I’ve added near 3L of pods since July. I had been dosing Phytoplankton 20ml daily and same with Arka special blend.

As stated before I had been using the UV wand but felt it maybe sterilising the sand too much! I haven’t tried waterglass yet but have it in hand but prefer to try and beat this without dosing silicates if I can.

Po4 0.14 (it’s stayed above 0.09) No3 44.3 (it’s steadily increasing even with weekly 25l changes)

Tank is a reefer 250, Reefmat 250, RSK300dc skimmer.

I’ve also tried Tropic Marine Nitribiotic, Bacter 7, Removing brown patches during water changes. I’ve also just let the tank get dirty and stopped all water changes but with nitrates climbing, I felt I needed to get back on and try and reduce them slowly.

Also to add… Microscope slides I see a lot of deditrus and quite a few diatoms! On samples there’s probably only 4 or 5 moving separately, like I have to find them and a few just dormant- not moving.

 

[EnterName]

Thank you for helping.

Tank was started in Jan with old rock from previous tank as this was an upgrade. Sand was new Caribsea Pink Fiji, I’ve added near 3L of pods since July. I had been dosing Phytoplankton 20ml daily and same with Arka special blend.

Okay so if you used live rock we wouldn't expect too much unwanted growth after nearly a year.

Po4 0.14 (it’s stayed above 0.09) No3 44.3 (it’s steadily increasing even with weekly 25l changes)

That's a lot. I think we can agree nutrient dosing is not the solution here

Also to add… Microscope slides I see a lot of deditrus and quite a few diatoms! On samples there’s probably only 4 or 5 moving separately, like I have to find them and a few just dormant- not moving.

That sounds more like diatoms are the issue than dinoflagellates. The sand looks more "dusty" than "slimy", so maybe silicate is the actual issue.

Both images below show Diatoms not dinoflagellates.

As you can see the issue can become quite visible. Silicate is pretty hard to get rid of it's one of the first things to get through the DI resin and doesn't really increase conductivity so TDS meter won't pick it up before other substances come through as well. For dinoflagellates to become visible to the naked eye you need quite a few cells.

 

[TheDon]

Okay so if you used live rock we wouldn't expect too much unwanted growth after nearly a year.


That's a lot. I think we can agree nutrient dosing is not the solution here


That sounds more like diatoms are the issue than dinoflagellates. The sand looks more "dusty" than "slimy", so maybe silicate is the actual issue.

Both images below show Diatoms not dinoflagellates.

As you can see the issue can become quite visible. Silicate is pretty hard to get rid of it's one of the first things to get through the DI resin and doesn't really increase conductivity so TDS meter won't pick it up before other substances come through as well. For dinoflagellates to become visible to the naked eye you need quite a few cells.

I use spotless water and have done for quite some time. I have used a salifert silicate test and it was clear. I definitely have cells that move but also cells that look like dinos but are stationary.

I have sucked up the brown patches with a turkey baster and filled a sample jar with the sand and water. I’ve given it a shake and put a sample on slides. As stated, I see quite a bit of debris and penate diatoms (little golden seeds, 3 pointed stars) but also a few cells that move slowly.
I have a nice green biofilm on rocks with coraline and on back walls too. Even with high nitrates my corals and fish seem fine. I have just done a 40l water change to try and bring nitrates down to a more manageable level.

Don’t think I can feed any less with my stocking… A credit sized piece of nori for my one spot foxface and Tomini (all my fish seem to have ago at it) 2 cubes of mysis thawed and rinsed and they eat it all.
Being a Red Sea skimmer it’s hit and miss with skimming! It’s either not pulling enough or going too wet. However there’s always loads of crap in neck and cup when I come to clean.

You would think dosing special blend and nitribiotic my nutrients would come down I was thinking maybe it’s the phytoplankton that’s maybe not being consumed and increasing my nitrate?

 

[EnterName]

Okay so if you used live rock we wouldn't expect too much unwanted growth after nearly a year.


That's a lot. I think we can agree nutrient dosing is not the solution here


That sounds more like diatoms are the issue than dinoflagellates. The sand looks more "dusty" than "slimy", so maybe silicate is the actual issue.

Both images below show Diatoms not dinoflagellates.

As you can see the issue can become quite visible. Silicate is pretty hard to get rid of it's one of the first things to get through the DI resin and doesn't really increase conductivity so TDS meter won't pick it up before other substances come through as well. For dinoflagellates to become visible to the naked eye you need quite a few cells.

I use spotless water and have done for quite some time. I have used a salifert silicate test and it was clear. I definitely have cells that move but also cells that look like dinos but are stationary.

I have sucked up the brown patches with a turkey baster and filled a sample jar with the sand and water. I’ve given it a shake and put a sample on slides. As stated, I see quite a bit of debris and penate diatoms (little golden seeds, 3 pointed stars) but also a few cells that move slowly.
I have a nice green biofilm on rocks with coraline and on back walls too. Even with high nitrates my corals and fish seem fine. I have just done a 40l water change to try and bring nitrates down to a more manageable level.

Don’t think I can feed any less with my stocking… A credit sized piece of nori for my one spot foxface and Tomini (all my fish seem to have ago at it) 2 cubes of mysis thawed and rinsed and they eat it all.
Being a Red Sea skimmer it’s hit and miss with skimming! It’s either not pulling enough or going too wet. However there’s always loads of crap in neck and cup when I come to clean.

You would think dosing special blend and nitribiotic my nutrients would come down I was thinking maybe it’s the phytoplankton that’s maybe not being consumed and increasing my nitrate?

Well, besides denitrification bacteria will just bind nutrients to their biomass until the population is at a maximum. At that point there is an equal amount of uptake and release in nutrients and adding more bacteria just adds biomass (nutrients) that will get released. We don't know how mich denitrification actually takes place in your tank, so adding bacteria might not do anything besides adding even more nutrients.

If you see a bunch of diatoms silicate levels don't matter too much, as they are definitely there regardless of what the test is saying. I don't know if all forms of silicate can be detected by the droplet tests.

If you post an image of the detritus and cell aggregates, we might be able to pin down the actual issue. So far we have only seen a few individual cells which won't be visible without a microscope.

 

[TheDon]

Well, besides denitrification bacteria will just bind nutrients to their biomass until the population is at a maximum. At that point there is an equal amount of uptake and release in nutrients and adding more bacteria just adds biomass (nutrients) that will get released. We don't know how mich denitrification actually takes place in your tank, so adding bacteria might not do anything besides adding even more nutrients.

If you see a bunch of diatoms silicate levels don't matter too much, as they are definitely there regardless of what the test is saying. I don't know if all forms of silicate can be detected by the droplet tests.

If you post an image of the detritus and cell aggregates, we might be able to pin down the actual issue. So far we have only seen a few individual cells which won't be visible without a microscope.

As soon as the brown reappears I will grab some videos. These were taken around 18th Oct but it’s what I’m seeing on recent slides along with the same ones moving on first post.

 

[TheDon]

Today’s pictures and videos taken from darkest parts of sandbed.

 

[EnterName]

I have gone through all photographs in "Marine benthic dinoflagellates - unveiling their worldwide biodiversity" (ISBN 978-3-510-61402-8) and searched the web a bit. I'm still struggling with a proper identification. Could you leave the cells on the microscope slide for a few hours and then try to get an image again? I would like to see if they shrink/dry out into a theca or are athecate.

The images below are NOT appropriate identifications, just a few ideas I went through based on some "identifying features" I managed to bring out of the images.

Photos from the previously mentioned book and https://doi.org/10.1080/09670262.2015.1009174 for Adenoides eludens.

No Amphidinium or Prorocentrum species I know looks like your cells, but their morphology can differ quite significantly, even between individuals of the same strain. So you most likely don't have the "typical" dino variety found in reef tanks.

 

[TheDon]

I have gone through all photographs in "Marine benthic dinoflagellates - unveiling their worldwide biodiversity" (ISBN 978-3-510-61402-8) and searched the web a bit. I'm still struggling with a proper identification. Could you leave the cells on the microscope slide for a few hours and then try to get an image again? I would like to see if they shrink/dry out into a theca or are athecate.

The images below are NOT appropriate identifications, just a few ideas I went through based on some "identifying features" I managed to bring out of the images.

Photos from the previously mentioned book and https://doi.org/10.1080/09670262.2015.1009174 for Adenoides eludens.

No Amphidinium or Prorocentrum species I know looks like your cells, but their morphology can differ quite significantly, even between individuals of the same strain. So you most likely don't have the "typical" dino variety found in reef tanks.

That’s a bit worrying, any advice on where I go from here? I’m tempted to use the UV sweeper again as it keeps them at bay for a few days.

I’m also tempted to use this waterglass 40% it’s the only thing I haven’t tried because I have heard story’s of people dosing for weeks and months and still have them.

I just seem to be spending money on different bacteria and copepods/phyto and still have no real idea how to treat them.

 

[EnterName]

That’s a bit worrying, any advice on where I go from here? I’m tempted to use the UV sweeper again as it keeps them at bay for a few days.

You could also see it as good news because if it's not well known it's unlikely to be an issue that stays if you don't take action.

I’m also tempted to use this waterglass 40% it’s the only thing I haven’t tried because I have heard story’s of people dosing for weeks and months and still have them.

I mean you already seem to have more diatoms than dinoflagellate cells.

Usually you would have very dense dino cells if there was a severe problem, I'm wondering why you only ever see one or two.

 

[TheDon]

You could also see it as good news because if it's not well known it's unlikely to be an issue that stays if you don't take action.


I mean you already seem to have more diatoms than dinoflagellate cells.

Usually you would have very dense dino cells if there was a severe problem, I'm wondering why you only ever see one or two.

Unless I’m doing something wrong? I normally suck up the top brown layer with a turkey baster and put it into a small receptacle for. I then shake it up and use a pipette to put a few drops on a slide.

I’ve never seen a mass of them like some post! But my sand if left gets darker and darker. I’ve had 3 snails die so far - 2 zombie snails and a turban snail, this maybe a coincidence or might be the dinos! I’m running activated carbon and changing that every 5/7 days.

Just don’t know where to go from here! I’m going to try and get another sample today and check again. My microscope isn’t the best but will try and get better pictures.