LCA Dinoflagellates- Have you beaten them?

[TheDon]

Hi guys,


I am currently about three months into my battle with LCA. Honestly, I know people say it is a long game with these, but I am really losing the will!


I’ve thrown everything at it barring silicate dosing: I went down the UV sandbed sweeper route, dosed nearly 2L of copepods, and added 25 to 30 ml of phytoplankton daily. Initially, I ran the UV every other day, then backed off to every 3 to 4 days whenever brown spots appeared. I started out using Brightwell MicroBacter7, then switched to dosing ARKA Special Blend daily.


Last month, I switched over to Tropic Marin Nitribiotic, dosing 3 ml every three days before dropping down to a weekly dose after a few weeks. Recently, I ran the UV sweeper for eight days straight, and by the end of it, my sandbed was totally clear. I kept up with the phytoplankton, stopped running the UV, and started checking samples under a microscope—I found a few things that looked like LCA/Dinos, but none of them were moving.


I currently have a green biofilm on the back wall, and with the lights on full white, there is a slight green tint in a few spots on the sand. Fast forward to yesterday, and very light brown spots started appearing again. I tested a sample yesterday and unfortunately, I still have LCA—only a very few per slide (about 3 or 4), but I still have to look hard to find them.

Any advice from people who have beaten these? Should I continue with the sandbed UV? I have a mother 1L of copepods on order, so will be adding them tomorrow.

Many thanks

 

[TheDon]

Just to add, I haven’t done a water change in near 3 months so just using all for reef to top up on Alk,Cal,Mag. My Po4 and No3 have never bottomed out - Currently Po4 0.21 (Hanna) No3 35/40 (salifert)

Lowest they have been is Po4 0.05 No4 10

Tank started from a previous year old tank, upgraded to a reefer 250 with live rock/Bio balls/ceramic block from previous tank and just used new Caribsea pink Fiji sand.

 

[EnterName]

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier.

If you had a severe outbreak but nutrients never bottomed out you might want to try to get them to bottom out. I know most people associate undetectable nutrient levels with dinoflagellates but even dinoflagellates require nutrients to grow, so why not give it a chance? You can combine this with water changes and trace element replenishment if you want. Obviously this might increase the growth for a moment, but many other organisms that you might want to keep in your tank to compete with dinos require these trace elements.

Maybe your actual issue aren't the nutrients you can measure (nitrate and phosphate), but those you can't measure. Have you ever looked into carbon dosing? This works quite well for increasing bacteria growth and might be the reason why your nutrients never bottomed out (carbon was the limiting factor so nitrogen and phosphorus never got fully depleted).

So my overall suggestion: Play around with the ratio of carbon (C), nitrogen (N), and phosphorus (P). To add more nitrogen I recommend a DIY ammonia solution and for phosphorus a DIY phosphate solution.

 

[snizbackskatin]

I had SCA, so a similar sand dwelling type.

I started with months of silicate dosing that did nothing, so I eventually dropped that. Then, like you, I stopped water changes for months and threw the UV sweeper plus a bunch of different bacteria at it. Asked AI for suggestions and it basically said I was doing way too many things at once and it clearly wasn’t working, except the UV sweeper, where you could actually see the sand getting cleaner.

So I restarted water changes, stopped all the bacteria dosing since it wasn’t doing anything, and kept the UV sweeper but only did it where I actually saw dinos. The idea is to let the good bacteria/diatoms recolonize the rest of the sand and starve the dinos out of their spot.

At first they’d come back after a couple days. Then it took longer. Then the patches got smaller and smaller each time. It’s not an instant fix, but sweeping just the visible spots once or twice a week isn’t that hard, and eventually they stop coming back.

Also keep testing your nutrients and don’t let them bottom out. I dosed nitrate and phosphate when needed the whole time.

 

[mcarroll]

Hi guys,


I am currently about three months into my battle with LCA. Honestly, I know people say it is a long game with these, but I am really losing the will!


I’ve thrown everything at it barring silicate dosing: I went down the UV sandbed sweeper route, dosed nearly 2L of copepods, and added 25 to 30 ml of phytoplankton daily. Initially, I ran the UV every other day, then backed off to every 3 to 4 days whenever brown spots appeared. I started out using Brightwell MicroBacter7, then switched to dosing ARKA Special Blend daily.


Last month, I switched over to Tropic Marin Nitribiotic, dosing 3 ml every three days before dropping down to a weekly dose after a few weeks. Recently, I ran the UV sweeper for eight days straight, and by the end of it, my sandbed was totally clear. I kept up with the phytoplankton, stopped running the UV, and started checking samples under a microscope—I found a few things that looked like LCA/Dinos, but none of them were moving.


I currently have a green biofilm on the back wall, and with the lights on full white, there is a slight green tint in a few spots on the sand. Fast forward to yesterday, and very light brown spots started appearing again. I tested a sample yesterday and unfortunately, I still have LCA—only a very few per slide (about 3 or 4), but I still have to look hard to find them.

Any advice from people who have beaten these? Should I continue with the sandbed UV? I have a mother 1L of copepods on order, so will be adding them tomorrow.

Many thanks

Curious about more fundamentals.

How old is the tank?

What are the tank's N & P levels historically before the outbreak? Any changes or variability?

Since you claim nutrients have been replete, what led to the outbreak?

Also have you confirmed that you have dino's and not something else? If so, how?

Can you post photos of the tank and (if possible) microscope photos of your dino's as well?

 

[TheDon]

Curious about more fundamentals.

How old is the tank?

What are the tank's N & P levels historically before the outbreak? Any changes or variability?

Since you claim nutrients have been replete, what led to the outbreak?

Also have you confirmed that you have dino's and not something else? If so, how?

Can you post photos of the tank and (if possible) microscope photos of your dino's as well?

Tank was started in Jan as I upgraded my blue marine 160 (year old) to a new Red Sea Reefer 250G3 - I used all my live rock, bio blocks and bio balls from the BM160 and just used new live sand (Caribsea Punk Fiji)

Nutrients have been fine and have never bottomed out, I use to check levels every few days. I thought the brown patches on sand were diatoms at first but they use to go at night and sand was clear in morning until my lights came on and eventually i would get a light brown dusting. I had a sample checked and posted on Mack’s Dino support page and it was confirmed as LCA. Apparently it is possible to have dinos with higher nutrients, I didn’t dose any copepods in this tank or phytoplankton at the beginning so maybe the sand was free for the dinos to take hold as there was no competition.

I’m thinking about dosing silicates, I’ve bought this one off eBay (not sure if it’s the correct one)

I’ve heard a lot of people say that dosing silicates didn’t work for them so I’ve been a bit reluctant to try. Maybe because my Po4 and No3 are high it might bring on the diatoms quicker and out compete the LCA.

When I was using the sweeper my sand was clear next day but then it would reappear after 3/4 days just in a few places where flow wasn’t as good eg: back wall and base of rocks. I haven’t got loads swimming around on slides, I took samples from a few places and I would see some that looked like dinos but didn’t move at all ! On each slide I would probably only see a couple swimming about.

 

[mcarroll]

When I was using the sweeper my sand was clear next day but then it would reappear after 3/4 days just in a few places where flow wasn’t as good eg: back wall and base of rocks. I haven’t got loads swimming around on slides, I took samples from a few places and I would see some that looked like dinos but didn’t move at all ! On each slide I would probably only see a couple swimming about.

Seeing some dinoflagellates on a slide doesn't make it a dino outbreak....if "Mack" didn't tell you that, then maybe double back and reassess what you really have going on. (If you want a better dino authority, use the main dino thread here on R2R. Copycats are just that...)

Tank was started in Jan as I upgraded my blue marine 160 (year old) to a new Red Sea Reefer 250G3 - I used all my live rock, bio blocks and bio balls from the BM160 and just used new live sand (Caribsea Punk Fiji)

Bio-media like that is for fish tanks. Unless you have a specific use case for it, leave it out.

Worth noting how young the tank was before it was "reset" into the current tank. Never had a chance to get past the uglies.

Nutrients have been fine and have never bottomed out, I use to check levels every few days.

This is the most common feature of a dino outbreak....IMO further evidence that you have something else going on. Maybe just a case of the uglies.

I thought the brown patches on sand were diatoms at first but they use to go at night and sand was clear in morning until my lights came on and eventually i would get a light brown dusting. I had a sample checked and posted on Mack’s Dino support page and it was confirmed as LCA.

Read my dino thread....IMO get your ID double checked there.

Apparently it is possible to have dinos with higher nutrients, I didn’t dose any copepods in this tank or phytoplankton at the beginning so maybe the sand was free for the dinos to take hold as there was no competition.

Just not really possible. You can have dino's living in your tank – which is normal – but not an outbreak. Conditions aren't right. Still seems like the uglies.

I’m thinking about dosing silicates, I’ve bought this one off eBay (not sure if it’s the correct one)

I’ve heard a lot of people say that dosing silicates didn’t work for them so I’ve been a bit reluctant to try. Maybe because my Po4 and No3 are high it might bring on the diatoms quicker and out compete the LCA.

Not sure...buy a product intended for reefs/aquariums if possible. But realize that treatment is very edge-case and hardly a sure thing.

IMO you have a young tank that's just going through the uglies. Keeping excess bio-media is a sign that the tank was set up a bit oddly, so that might be prolonging the uglies.

The best way to deal with the uglies is to use 100% live rock and/or leave the lights off for the first month or two while non-photosynthetic life has a chance to spead out and occupy space. Otherwise the answer is usually a fair amount of work and patience...and you can't really fight it since the tank is just trying to establish itself.

Maybe post 1 or 2 pics or movies (via YouTube) from your scope here if you don't want to start over in the dino thread (since I'm not sure you really have a dino outbreak)?

 

[TheDon]

Seeing some dinoflagellates on a slide doesn't make it a dino outbreak....if "Mack" didn't tell you that, then maybe double back and reassess what you really have going on. (If you want a better dino authority, use the main dino thread here on R2R. Copycats are just that...)


Bio-media like that is for fish tanks. Unless you have a specific use case for it, leave it out.

Worth noting how young the tank was before it was "reset" into the current tank. Never had a chance to get past the uglies.


This is the most common feature of a dino outbreak....IMO further evidence that you have something else going on. Maybe just a case of the uglies.


Read my dino thread....IMO get your ID double checked there.


Just not really possible. You can have dino's living in your tank – which is normal – but not an outbreak. Conditions aren't right. Still seems like the uglies.


Not sure...buy a product intended for reefs/aquariums if possible. But realize that treatment is very edge-case and hardly a sure thing.

IMO you have a young tank that's just going through the uglies. Keeping excess bio-media is a sign that the tank was set up a bit oddly, so that might be prolonging the uglies.

The best way to deal with the uglies is to use 100% live rock and/or leave the lights off for the first month or two while non-photosynthetic life has a chance to spead out and occupy space. Otherwise the answer is usually a fair amount of work and patience...and you can't really fight it since the tank is just trying to establish itself.

Maybe post 1 or 2 pics or movies (via YouTube) from your scope here if you don't want to start over in the dino thread (since I'm not sure you really have a dino outbreak)?

 

[mcarroll]

Your outbreak is circled in blue. In a dino outbreak it would most likely be either nothing but dino's or dino's and some cyano.

Compare with some photos and videos of outbreaks posted here (LCA and otherwise):
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

If you do some googling, is there any chance you think you might have a chrysophyte outbreak? I've seen some slides with that that appear similar to yours.

Can you post a tank pic that show what this looks like in the tank? Also, any chance of higher magnification photos?

 

[TheDon]

Your outbreak is circled in blue. In a dino outbreak it would most likely be either nothing but dino's or dino's and some cyano.

Compare with some photos and videos of outbreaks posted here (LCA and otherwise):
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

If you do some googling, is there any chance you think you might have a chrysophyte outbreak? I've seen some slides with that that appear similar to yours.

Can you post a tank pic that show what this looks like in the tank? Also, any chance of higher magnification photos?

Will try and get some pics but there’s no stringy stuff just very light patches. As soon as I see some I use UV and next day sands back to being white. So will have to hold back on UV and wait till they appear again and take a picture.

The other day when I looked at tank there was a green biofilm on back weir and what looked like a green dusting on some of the sand. I have been dosing 30ml phytoplankton nightly though.

 

[mcarroll]

It might be more interesting to see a non-UV-wanded sample, but I'm still thinking the main explanantion is new tank syndrome/the uglies.

How are your pods and snails doing? Any signs of other algae like hair algae or coralline?

If there's any chance you are over lighting the tank (doing so is pretty common), maybe throttle back on intensity to "normal" levels.

 

[TheDon]

It might be more interesting to see a non-UV-wanded sample, but I'm still thinking the main explanantion is new tank syndrome/the uglies.

How are your pods and snails doing? Any signs of other algae like hair algae or coralline?

If there's any chance you are over lighting the tank (doing so is pretty common), maybe throttle back on intensity to "normal" levels.

Snails are fine and in total around 3L of pods have gone in tank but I’m not sure if using the uv sweeper is maybe killing some off?

Lights are only on for 7hrs and and hour moonlight Red Sea 60g2 and only set at 50%

No hair algae or any other nuisance algae at all, rocks a clean and have coralline growing on them and on my wave makers and back wall

 

[mcarroll]

Snails are fine and in total around 3L of pods have gone in tank but I’m not sure if using the uv sweeper is maybe killing some off?

Lights are only on for 7hrs and and hour moonlight Red Sea 60g2 and only set at 50%

No hair algae or any other nuisance algae at all, rocks a clean and have coralline growing on them and on my wave makers and back wall

Hair or bubble algae are by far the best pest algae to have, so in your case I'd actually prefer to hear you have "some" vs none.

Coralline growing is definitely a positive sign.

Do some inspecting with a flashlight at night in the tank and sump corners and around the base of rocks...you shojld see pods swarming.

Snails being happy means there is NOT a preponderance of dino's in your tank's microfauna.

 

[EnterName]

Your outbreak is circled in blue. In a dino outbreak it would most likely be either nothing but dino's or dino's and some cyano.

That's just detritus, imo. Looks pretty normal for a sample taken from rockscape, substrate, filter socks, or similar.

But obviously an outbreak would be full of dino cells and the little bit of green on the back wall is probably just part of the uglies as you said.

I share your opinion that OP's tank looks fine so far. Maybe we will see more if OP stops using the UV sweeper for a while.

 

[TheDon]

Hair or bubble algae are by far the best pest algae to have, so in your case I'd actually prefer to hear you have "some" vs none.

Coralline growing is definitely a positive sign.

Do some inspecting with a flashlight at night in the tank and sump corners and around the base of rocks...you shojld see pods swarming.

Snails being happy means there is NOT a preponderance of dino's in your tank's microfauna.

Well I’ve left tank and just dosed copepods and tropic Marin nitribiotic/Phyto and sandbed has been quite clear! I did a water change on 17th and last sandbed uv sweep was 12th. I tested a few samples where there was a change in colour (very very golden brown) and nothing BUT today these sections looked a bit browner so took some samples and I have one or two on the slide swimming! Are these still LCA?





These ones were not moving below

 

[TheDon]

Not sure what to do next, leave tank alone and concentrate on getting nutrients in check Po4 0.09 No3 36.2 - Obviously nitrate needs some attention but don’t want to lower my phosphate.

I have waterglass here, I could try the diatom route. Sandbed isn’t bad so maybe a good old diatom bloom would knock them for six!

 

[mcarroll]

Not sure what to do next, leave tank alone and concentrate on getting nutrients in check Po4 0.09 No3 36.2 - Obviously nitrate needs some attention but don’t want to lower my phosphate.

I have waterglass here, I could try the diatom route. Sandbed isn’t bad so maybe a good old diatom bloom would knock them for six!

Without more signs of an actual problem I think I'd go with the "change nothing for a while" option.

Things look great, at least in the photos. Slides look pretty good. Nutrients are really not far off....NO3 should come down through usage and hurts nothing in the mean time.

Maybe one caveat/question....is that PO4 number what you dose up to, or the low before you dose?

If that's the low, then IMO you're good to "do nothing" for a while.

If thats the high, then try to dose more (or more often) so that it doesn't go much below 0.10 ppm. Then you're good for the "do nothing" plan.

 

[TheDon]

Without more signs of an actual problem I think I'd go with the "change nothing for a while" option.

Things look great, at least in the photos. Slides look pretty good. Nutrients are really not far off....NO3 should come down through usage and hurts nothing in the mean time.

Maybe one caveat/question....is that PO4 number what you dose up to, or the low before you dose?

If that's the low, then IMO you're good to "do nothing" for a while.

If thats the high, then try to dose more (or more often) so that it doesn't go much below 0.10 ppm. Then you're good for the "do nothing" plan.

I decided a couple weeks back that I needed to try and reduce Po4 and No3 since I hadn’t done a water change in over 3 months! Skimmer is finicky and can never get a good dark skim (RSK 300DC) plus nutrients were high! Po4 21.2 No3 46 at one stage.

I started using Nopox to bring them down, I only used 4ml every other day, it was bringing them down slowly but I didn’t want my Po4 to bottom out so have stopped the Nopox. I was going to do another 10% water change, do you think I should still do it?

 

[mcarroll]

I decided a couple weeks back that I needed to try and reduce Po4 and No3 since I hadn’t done a water change in over 3 months! Skimmer is finicky and can never get a good dark skim (RSK 300DC) plus nutrients were high! Po4 21.2 No3 46 at one stage.

21.2 or 2.12? I'm not sure you can measure up to 20 ppm with most test kits.

I started using Nopox to bring them down, I only used 4ml every other day, it was bringing them down slowly but I didn’t want my Po4 to bottom out so have stopped the Nopox. I was going to do another 10% water change, do you think I should still do it?

If you want to do a water change for other reasons, dose it up to your target nutrient minimum levels....IMO: ≥0.10 ppm for PO4 and ≥5 ppm for NO3.....higher numbers than those are fine and good; I wouldn't recommend lower numbers unless the tank gets there by itself, which IMO won't be really soon. Once the water change water has the desired amount of N and P, then a water change will be no problem.

I would not advocate screwing around with PO4 lowering products in a scenario like yours where numbers are already on the low side of favorable if you're really trying to get the tank biology back on track.

 

[TheDon]

21.2 or 2.12? I'm not sure you can measure up to 20 ppm with most test kits.


If you want to do a water change for other reasons, dose it up to your target nutrient minimum levels....IMO: ≥0.10 ppm for PO4 and ≥5 ppm for NO3.....higher numbers than those are fine and good; I wouldn't recommend lower numbers unless the tank gets there by itself, which IMO won't be really soon. Once the water change water has the desired amount of N and P, then a water change will be no problem.

I would not advocate screwing around with PO4 lowering products in a scenario like yours where numbers are already on the low side of favorable if you're really trying to get the tank biology back on track.

Sorry Po4 was 0.21

How will the nutrients balance out if I’m not actively removing them? Only way to remove them is by feeding less, water changes, mechanical filtration etc etc if I do nothing they will just eventually go back up.

This is why I thought I would carbon dose to try and get them in a better shape, I wasn’t going to lower them down to near zero.

So going forward, will weekly water changes be okay or should I just leave it all alone and just dose my all for reef to keep Alk,Mg,Cal in check? I’m still dosing Phytoplankton and Copepods.

Many thanks