Can the toxins from zoas actually kill you?

[fishywishy]

My family is worried about me getting zoas because there toxic, can the toxins actually kill you?

 

[RandomUser7]

Palytoxins can be pretty lethal, but the majority of reefers probably haven't had a bad experience with zoa toxins since not all zoanthids have them. Before you buy them ask your seller if they know whether or not the specimen you buy can poison you.

 

[Tired]

Sure, palytoxin can kill you. It's toxic, after all. Nasty stuff.

That being said, most zoas aren't significantly toxic, and simple precautions (gloves when handling them, as you should do for any rocks/corals/etc, eye protection when fragging) removes the risk. If handled with any reasonable sense, you'll be fine.

If you were to, say, eat some palythoas, or stick your face over a boiling pot of them, you would probably die. So, don't do that. You have more to worry about from bacteria on the rocks, which, again: gloves.

Think of it like bleach. If you drink it or inhale loads of it, you'll make yourself horribly sick, but your family probably wouldn't be scared for your life if you bought a bleach-based cleaner.
(Though I suppose they might have environmental/skin irritation/etc concerns. It's not a perfect metaphor.)

I wouldn't expect a seller to necessarily know whether the corals are toxic. They likely won't know the species. Best practice is to assume that every soft coral you touch should be handled with tongs or gloves.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Probably but so can about 100 other things in your house.

 

[fishywishy]

Sure, palytoxin can kill you. It's toxic, after all. Nasty stuff.

That being said, most zoas aren't significantly toxic, and simple precautions (gloves when handling them, as you should do for any rocks/corals/etc, eye protection when fragging) removes the risk. If handled with any reasonable sense, you'll be fine.

If you were to, say, eat some palythoas, or stick your face over a boiling pot of them, you would probably die. So, don't do that. You have more to worry about from bacteria on the rocks, which, again: gloves.

Think of it like bleach. If you drink it or inhale loads of it, you'll make yourself horribly sick, but your family probably wouldn't be scared for your life if you bought a bleach-based cleaner.
(Though I suppose they might have environmental/skin irritation/etc concerns. It's not a perfect metaphor.)

I wouldn't expect a seller to necessarily know whether the corals are toxic. They likely won't know the species. Best practice is to assume that every soft coral you touch should be handled with tongs or gloves.

Is every soft coral toxic?

 

[dedragon]

Is every soft coral toxic?

no not all, and not even all zoas are very toxic. The ones we worry about the most are palythoas usually. As long as you arent boiling zoas and using protection while fragging zoas you will be fine

 

[Tired]

Most soft corals aren't toxic, but some of them can be irritating, and a lot of them slime quite a bit when handled. Probably best not to get that slime on anywhere you might transfer it into and irritate your eyes.

As a general rule, you should use gloves/tongs/etc to handle things that are in your tank. There can be hidden sharp edges, any aquarium can harbor some nasty bacteria, and you don't want anything getting into any cuts you might have. You also might have stuff on your skin that your corals would prefer not to deal with. If you take the same basic precautions with them that should be applied to all reef aquarium surfaces, zoas aren't any concern.

 

[MoshJosh]

You should definitely be careful, and wear the proper protective equipment.

That said, I have fragged palys and zoas with my bare hands and I’m not dead. . . yet

Not saying you should do that, you definitely should NOT, but assuming you are careful it shouldn’t be a problem

 

[mfinn]

My family is worried about me getting zoas because there toxic, can the toxins actually kill you?

Some zoanthids and palythoas are toxic. But not all.
I must have not had any of the toxic ones in the 25+ years I've been keeping zoanthids in my tanks. I've had dozens and dozens of different ones. I can't even begin to count how many.
In the beginning for me, there really wasn't much info out ( pre-internet days) there. So being extra careful with them really wasn't a thing. I guess I have been lucky.
In the last 20 years or so there have been internet stories about severe cases ( and pictures).
Even so I still keep them.
My kids come over, bring grandkids and great grandkids, I'm not worried at all.
I now use a little more caution when handling them. I try to make sure I have somesort of eye protection, and rubber gloves if I'm going to frag some.
I think the disaster stories generate more attention ( maybe rightly so), but you don't need to be afraid of them. Keep them in the water, and use a little common sense when handling them.

 

[PeterEde]

I was told a story in my city of a family that decided to clean their aquarium and scrubbed rocks. So the story goes is they all ended up being treated in hospital for paly poisoning.
True or not I don't know but I was told the story

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Long story short, yes, palytoxin can kill you, but unless you’re doing something reckless, you’ll almost certainly be fine. Use protective equipment, learn the symptoms as a precaution, and enjoy your zoanthids is my take on it.

For the long story:
A lot of people handle their zoas without gloves - it's not recommended, but nobody in the hobby has died yet from palytoxin (though some have come relatively close). For it to be a problem you basically have to either: get it in your eyes (happens occasionally), swallow it (thankfully never heard of someone doing this in the hobby), or breathe it in while its aerosolized (this is usually where people run into problems).

My two cents on palytoxin after doing some research on it myself a while ago:

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
My understanding of palytoxin is this: some zoanthids and some palythoas have it, some don’t. Of those that do, some have it in meaningful quantities, some don’t. Even within the same species/color morph, there might be different levels of the toxin. Again, some might have it in meaningful quantities, some might not. There is some speculation that we might be able to breed toxin free palythoas and zoanthids like we’ve bred toxin free pufferfish, but I don’t know if this is accurate or not. There is also some speculation that, generally, the more colorful the zoanthid/palythoa, the less toxic or less likely to be toxic it is - there might be some truth to that, there moght not be.

What I know is this: you should probably treat all palythoas and zoanthids as if they do contain lethal levels of the toxin, and you should be aware of the signs of palytoxin poisoning in case you experience it, but most likely it won’t be an issue for you or your corals.

Don’t drop rocks on paly colonies, don’t frag zoas barehanded then rub your eyes, don’t bake live rock with zoas or palys on them (yes, these are all stories I’ve seen on here), and don’t scrub the rocks with colonies on them spotless with a toothbrush in a poorly ventilated area and no personal protective equipment.

As long as you don’t do anything blatantly unsafe or that would obviously upset the zoanthids or palythoas, you and your corals will likely all be fine. (And again, there’s a decent chance that even if you do something unwise or something that aggravates them, they might just not be toxic enough to do anything either way.)

So, be smart, be safe, and enjoy your zoas and palys.

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
Yeah, treat all palys/zoas as though they have larges amounts of palytoxin, but as long as you don’t have a sensitivity to it or open wounds on your hands, you should be fine just reaching in and washing your hands after. (In case you do have a sensitivity to it or to something else in your tank, though, I recommend wearing personal protective equipment when dealing with the tank, and especially when dealing with things that may be highly toxic).

Generally you have to do something really unwise that aerosolizes the toxin for it be dangerous (like boiling the rock with the palys on it, or scrubbing the rock bare with a toothbrush in a small space with no to limited airflow).

The zoas and palys release the toxin as a defensive measure, so as long as they don’t feel threatened, they shouldn’t release enough toxin to cause any sort of issue.

Again, use PPE and don’t do anything unwise, and you should be fine.

I admit to having limited knowledge with corals, but aside from zoas and palys, the only other technically dangerously toxic corals that I’m aware of are gonis (Goniopora spp. - flowerpot corals), and I’ve never heard of someone actually dying or being poisoned by them.

So, zoas, palys, and gonis aside, pretty much any other coral should be totally fine for your wife to learn about, as they don’t typically (some people have allergies to specific corals or I wouldn’t add “typically” to this statement) have potentially lethal toxins (she might take issue with some of the ones that can sting painfully though, such as Fire Corals).

 

[Asagi]

keep them out of your mouth, boys

 

[legionofdoon]

Does anyone know if the toxin is produced inherently or do they need a precursor like dart frogs do? Captive bred dart frogs don't produce as much toxin as wild ones and it's believed to be because of their diets in captivity vs nature.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Does anyone know if the toxin is produced inherently or do they need a precursor like dart frogs do? Captive bred dart frogs don't produce as much toxin as wild ones and it's believed to be because of their diets in captivity vs nature.

It’s hidden in my first quote:
“There is some speculation that we might be able to breed toxin free palythoas and zoanthids like we’ve bred toxin free pufferfish,”
To my knowledge it’s unconfirmed at this point, but it is suspected that the palytoxin is actually produced by bacteria rather than the zoanthids themselves.

My source (the last paragraph before the section two header):

Palytoxin and Analogs: Biological and Ecological Effects

Palytoxin (PTX) is a potent marine toxin that was originally found in soft corals from tropical areas of the Pacific Ocean. Soon after, its occurrence was observed in numerous other marine organisms from the same ecological region. More recently, several ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Edit: just to add, if it is produced by bacteria, then the quantities of the palytoxin producing bacteria in the vicinity of a paly/zoa may determine how toxic it is - this would explain a good deal about the variation in toxicity between specimens of the same species.

 

[bushdoc]

I am not aware of reported deaths due to palytoxin, but there were reports in medical literature of poisoning requiring emergency treatment and respiratory support. One of those cases happened in Alaska, when person was cleaning his tank and moving zoanthid covered rock, which fell on the flor. Members of his family had to be treated too.
CDC investigated LFS in Anchorage and apparently some workers had symptoms of illnes after handling zoas, just not severe enough to seek medical attention.
Looks like they had particularly poisoneus bach of zoas there.
Another case I stumbled upon, happened in India and a person needed prolonged respiratory support but survived.

 

[Tired]

Does anyone know if the toxin is produced inherently or do they need a precursor like dart frogs do? Captive bred dart frogs don't produce as much toxin as wild ones and it's believed to be because of their diets in captivity vs nature.

Captive bred dart frogs don't produce any notable amount of toxin- I've kept them. Toxic palythoas definitely produce palytoxin in captivity- same. Interesting to hear that it might be from bacteria, but whatever the mechanism, toxic palys stay toxic if fed nontoxic foods.

I've seen a news article or two blaming zoas for existing in an aquarium near where someone got sick, but given the information provided in the article, I'm generally inclined to think it was something else and the zoas got scapegoated. If zoas/palys/etc gave off any considerable amount of toxin just from existing in the aquarium, nobody would keep them, because they'd kill the tank off constantly.

You'll certainly get sick if you boil a rock covered in palys (though it might not even be from the palys- don't boil rock), or if you scrub them aggressively with a scrub brush while leaning over them, so don't do either of those things.

 

[mfinn]

I've seen a news article or two blaming zoas for existing in an aquarium near where someone got sick, but given the information provided in the article, I'm generally inclined to think it was something else and the zoas got scapegoated. If zoas/palys/etc gave off any considerable amount of toxin just from existing in the aquarium, nobody would keep them, because they'd kill the tank off constantly.

You'll certainly get sick if you boil a rock covered in palys (though it might not even be from the palys- don't boil rock), or if you scrub them aggressively with a scrub brush while leaning over them, so don't do either of those things.

I read a news article that had the local sheriff decided it was zoanthids/palys that poisoned a family.

 

[Tired]

They might need a new sheriff, unless the family had been playing a game of pat-the-palythoas-and-rub-your-eyes.

 

[Jim Gomoll]

I’m not 100% sure but believe this was from getting Paly juice on my face.

Week prior to these pics I did a WC and rearranged my corals, some Paly colonies and Zoas. Mid week I developed what I thought was a bad pimple. Couple days later it grew into a puss dripping cavity.

So on 10/28 I went to the doctor which took some cultures, gave me antibiotics and antiviral slots not knowing the cause. (ended up inconclusive as to what this was) Progressively got worse from then and two days later 10/30 had a hammer banning headache, chills, and my eye swelled shut. Wife took me to ER 11:30 that evening. Lots of test and more meds. Took awhile to heal up and have a scar similar to 10/29 pic from the ordeal.

After all this, was reading a reef article and saw a YouTube mentioning Paly poisoning. Article: Strongly recommended those of us in the Reef Hobby with Palys and Zoas tell your doctor so it is on file in case you go or are taken to the hospital. YouTube: Guy said he has scaring on his face from not taking proper precautions when handling Palys & Zoas. Another lesson learned.

Wear protective gear: Glasses and gloves. Don’t touch your face. Lesson learned the hard way

 

[elysics]

Is every soft coral toxic?

Pretty much everything underwater that can't swim away is toxic.
Corals, sponges, anemones, many snails, urchins etc.

Most of it is not very dangerous to humans though.