Can't decide whether to abandon LEDs

[bif24701]

no.
adding t5 to my led I think would make me happy. and Im actually getting good results w my led's. k really really good results.

Adding T5s to any light source is a great addition. Can't go wrong there.

Take a look at Tidel Gradens last you tube video about the cheap T5 fixtures he added to his green house grow systems. Mostly lite with sun light but he still felt a need for T5s

 

[cromag27]

All awesome points. do you have a link about using a lux meter? I use a par meter but I'd like to direct others to some kind of instructions on how to use it and what to look for.

• Classic case of buyer's remorse. Lot's of lighting threads start similarly.
• A case of buyer's remorse starts with the information asymmetry of Caveat emptor.

(Both of those links are worth reading even if you know the terms already.)

As long as marketing remains the same in this segment, I think it's always going to be difficult for new users to pick something they will actually be happy with.

Most of the talk is about nonsense concepts such as "full spectrum" and "pop" while people know little or nothing about lux meters, PI curves, lenses, spot vs area lighting, nutrition, etc.

As a result of this focus, you have people using LED's just like they were halides (whether they liked halides or not), and doing so without the aid of a light meter. That's not a recipe for success or happiness.

I've said it before: There's nothing wrong with spending $200/square foot to light your tank – there are awesome fixtures out there to be bought or built – as long as you're aware of what you're spending the money on, and that you can do it for $20/square foot.

Most dissatisfied folks don't seem to get that last part and instead try to associate sticker-price (high or low) and/or popularity with "best". You have to be aware of your options...which as I said is not easy for the uninitiated.

There are a few things that can help prevent or cure buyer's remorse....

A) Know that blue and white LED's of the absolute cheapest variety that merely turn on in the morning and off at night can make your corals happy and grow.

Happy and growing corals naturally look great.

Isn't this 90% of your goal? Maybe 100%?​

B) Know that every other feature and color on a light fixture is for you and not the corals.

Sunrise/sunset is nice looking, and however goofy I think extra color looks I admit that there's a segment of folks that like it. All these things (and the rest) are fine, but extra.​

Can this be much more than 10% of your goal?​

C) Know the difference between area lighting and spot lighting.

Along with price, this lack of knowledge seems like it could be at the root of many cases of LED-dissatisfaction.

Start with a fixture that puts out the kind of light you will prefer!

• LED strips will be similar to T5 light.
• LED pucks, multi chips (e.g. Kessils) and china boxes are all more similar to metal halide light.

D) Last, but not least: Use a light meter to make any lighting change.

Minimize changes in lighting intensity between changes in lighting setups.

There are $free lux meter apps that work well.

There are $15 handheld lux meters that work even better and are safer to use over your tank.

A PAR meter is great, but don't hold out on using a light meter at all just because you can't afford one.
​

 

[cromag27]

@mcarroll

:)

 

[mcarroll]

Adding T5s to any light source is a great addition. Can't go wrong there.

Anyone can have any preference they want, but I don't agree with this as a generalization. I've never had a light fixture that needed T5's in any way, for example.

All awesome points. do you have a link about using a lux meter?

I do (see last item), but there are lots of resources to use:

• I've marked a ton of posts with the #lux #meter tags – click them to get a list of those posts directly.
  (Use the web version of the site if your app doesn't support tags.)
• You can look directly at my postings about lux by this search:
  https://www.reef2reef.com/search/1353212/?q=lux&o=relevance&c[user][0]=19871
  
• @saltyfilmfolks has some nice threads in his postings about lux:
  https://www.reef2reef.com/search/1353215/?q=lux&o=relevance&c[user][0]=37836
  
• Read Dana Riddle's stuff, inlcuding:
  Feature Article: How Much Light?! Analyses of Selected Shallow Water Invertebrates' Light Requirements
  Aquarium Equipment: PAR Meters and LEDs - How Accurate are the Measurements? A Comparison of Three Meters and Lux to PAR Conversion Factors for LEDs
  Product Review: Lighting for Reef Aquaria: Tips on Taking Light Measurements
  
• I do have an elementary blog article on the subject here, but it doesn't get into the how-to:
  Beginner’s Lux

 

[mcarroll]

Also, in a tiny nutshell there's this:

Direct sunlight at sea level gets up to around:

100,000 lux
2,000 PAR
1,000 watts/square meter​

So you can convert pretty easily on the fly

lux ÷ 50 = PAR
PAR • 50 = lux​

Most light measurements are only very rough approximations – even from high-end instruments. They are subject to all sorts of real-world variation. These numbers are no exception. This is good to remember. :)

P.S. Dana Riddle lists a bunch of conversion factors so you can see the range of possible conversion factors. Most reef-like lights are not that far off of 50....and 50 makes for easy math. :)

 

[cromag27]

I guess I'm trying to figure out if I would ever use a lux meter if I have two par meters.......that I don't use. lol.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I guess I'm trying to figure out if I would ever use a lux meter if I have two par meters.......that I don't use. lol.

if you bought or tested a new led I think. or were looking at them at macna like I was.
if an led at 100,000 lux only gives you 1700 par or less. thats a problem. if its giving you a lot more you should perhaps question how.an ati coral plus @ 100,000 lux should give you around 2500 par as the easiest way to fool a par meter is to add yellow or red. So If your shopping for an led in the store and you use a par meter dont wear a red or white t shirt. And now Im pretty sure the kessil ap700 wont grow high par corals.
par meters arent made just for reefs, so they like those other colors.
.

for the most part it just an inexpensive light test for the average hobbyist and a learning tool. not chronic tinkers like myself.

and no. I dont use my red lux meter much either.

 

[ihavecrabs]

Buy a T5 fixture and some E5 LED bulbs. You can switch back and forth between T5 or E5 bulbs or so a combo of both.

 

[mcarroll]

I guess I'm trying to figure out if I would ever use a lux meter if I have two par meters.......that I don't use. lol.

I don't use my lux meter every day either.

But honestly a lux meter is going to be a lot more generally-useful than a PAR meter. You can assess room and task lighting around the house, for example. I used mine when I bought replacement LED's for the laundry room so I could make sure I had at least as much light before and after.

Having a meter should be mandatory, but all you need is a lux meter and (at most) a conversion factor to PAR specific to your light. (I get by fine without a conversion factor, but my numbers would have less fudge-factor in them if I had one.)

My Advice
Get a lux meter, compute your conversion factor(s) and sell the PAR meters...pocket a few (hundred?) dollars. :D

 

[cromag27]

Cha ching!

 

[mcarroll]

E5 LED bulbs

Can you post some links to anything that's actually for sale? I've heard about a couple of reef options, but I've never seen anything but office lighting for sale like this.

 

[mcarroll]

Cha ching!

In seriousness, maybe a LFS or local reef club would buy one or both from you to use as loaners! That would be some good reef-humanitarian stuff right there.

 

[cromag27]

No shimmer with these.

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/shop-by-brand/euroquatics

 

[cromag27]

Good idea. I'll check around sell to them at a discount.

In seriousness, maybe a LFS or local reef club would buy one or both from you to use as loaners! That would be some good reef-humanitarian stuff right there.

 

[mcarroll]

No shimmer with these.

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/shop-by-brand/euroquatics

Assuming light quality and performance are as-advertised (nice 3-year warranty), then spending roughly the cost of three or four bulb upgrades isn't too bad for an easy upgrade. ($280 for a four-foot, four-bulb upgrade.) You save money on power starting now and save money on bulb replacements after four years (or based on your frequency of bulb swaps).

The potential downside would be that you have the T5 fixture to keep running, which may be old and for which parts may become less-available as time goes on.

 

[ihavecrabs]

Assuming light quality and performance are as-advertised (nice 3-year warranty), then spending roughly the cost of three or four bulb upgrades isn't too bad for an easy upgrade. ($280 for a four-foot, four-bulb upgrade.) You save money on power starting now and save money on bulb replacements after four years (or based on your frequency of bulb swaps).

The potential downside would be that you have the T5 fixture to keep running, which may be old and for which parts may become less-available as time goes on.

But the versatility is great. You can mix T5 and LED and decide tomorrow to go all T5 or all LED at minimal cost.

I have 2 E5 blue pop bulbs running in my ATI 6 bulb fixture currently. Not much shimmer but the blues really do make the coral pop and I get even coverage and great growth when the day lights are on.

 

[TheEngineer]

I've been an LED fan for years. I built my own fixture before there were vendors you could buy from, but now I run a Kessil A360 over my 50g cube. Is it the strongest light I've seen? Nope. Does it grow coral on my sandbed? Yep. I felt there was a little missing in terms of pop for me, so I added a UV LED star. Fixed the look for me and I couldn't be happier now.

LED setups are customizable too. Think a color is missing? Add it! The T5 folks do it all the time by swapping in and out bulbs. For us it just takes a little more effort.

 

[mcarroll]

LED setups are customizable too. Think a color is missing? Add it! The T5 folks do it all the time by swapping in and out bulbs. For us it just takes a little more effort.

I may have them beat: I use GU10 LED bulbs on my DIY fixtures, so it's a twist-out/twist-in job to change bulbs – one-handed.

Plus, these bulbs barely get hot to the touch so you don't even have to wait for them to cool down before handling.

(All my bulbs are 2:1 cool blue:white, but I haven't seen a need to add/change anything color-wise.)

Here's someone else's fixture, with a basic set of $1-$2 bulbs, photographed nicely:

2¢

 

[TheEngineer]

 

[mcarroll]

Nice! Almost like it was meant to be there! :)